Buyer Violated MBG - E-Bay still sides with Buyer? Why?

[katzrul15]

Buyer buys.

Buyer evidently changes mind - told e-Bay found cheaper. 

Parcel shipped same day as order/payment.  Arrives in 2 days, Buyer refuses parcel at Delivery.

Buyer wants full refund.  MBG says it is voided by Buyer refusal of parcel at delivery.

We reached out to e-Bay CS on social media.  They indicate we are to refund and it does not void MBG. 

Why not?  It is in written policy it does. 

Why do we owe Buyer a full refund??

[nono-8172]

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@this*old*attic wrote:

Which major detail would that be?

The fact that simple remorse isn’t an MBG matter?

And no, filing is NEVER required. I don’t know where that even comes from.

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@farmalljr wrote:

A refusal of delivery is NOT a return.

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Our card issuers also consider "Refused delivery" to be a valid return.

A return request has 2 phases, work it out and escalation. No case can be decided against a buyer until MBG is invoked in the latter phase. MBG isn't in play in the former phase, in refusing a delivery to return an item.

[mam98031]

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@this*old*attic wrote:

@mam98031 

Thats not correct, at least for all carriers.

I just returned two custom shampoo packages unopened via USPS. At least with them, it retains original tracking number and you can follow it all the way back to its point of origin.

Once the boxes arrived, I called the company and got my refund. In full.

Long story, had cancelled the subscription twice at that point (but don’t see how it’s any different than cancelling a single order before it’s arrival).

And another wrinkle - if they hadn’t, I’d have gone to PayPal and then my bank.

Katz’ customer can do the same thing.

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You must have me confused with some other poster.  I never said anything about the tracking.  I personally only use USPS and USPS tracks most packages that a buyer has refused the shipment as it moves back to me.  Not always, but the majority of the time.  And yes on a return to sender package it does retain the same tracking number.

Your situation is completely different from the OP's buyer.  You should have gotten a full refund as your story has no resemblance to the one we have been discussing on this thread.  I'm surprised you don't see the differences.

If the OP had of chosen to give the buyer a refund less shipping to and from, Ebay would have protected or should have protected the seller as the seller had the right to do that.  If the buyer didn't like it and appealed the claim or filed a chargeback, Ebay should have still stood up for the seller and if another refund were to be given it would have been out of Ebay's pocket, not the seller.

It is important to keep in mind that the buyer is not protected by the MBG if they file a Buyer's remorse Claim and the buyer is not protected by the MBG if they refuse the shipment.  This buyer did both, so they have no protection under the MBG. 

[mam98031]

You are completely ignoring the fact that the buyer refused the shipment.  And different rules applies to that action by the buyer which I've repeatedly explained in this thread, so I won't bore you with it again.

[mam98031]

I'm not sure Ebay has done anymore here than a CSR giving bad advice.  We see this all the time, I'm unsure why some are accepting what the CSR said to be the golden rule here.  Maybe it is, but I personally think many to include the CSR are ignoring the fact the buyer refused delivery.

Personally I think the buyer got bad advice from Ebay and I also think the OP got bad advice from Ebay.

[mam98031]

For the most part we have not been discussing what a Credit Card companies rules are.  That is a secondary concern.  The first concern is what Ebay's rules are.  If it was just that the buyer refused the delivery, then the seller is protected under seller protection and it means the same thing as being delivered.  If the buyer the in turn filed a claim with their Credit Card company, then Ebay would fight that battle.  The seller would not be or shouldn't be involved because of seller protection.  So it would be between Ebay and the CCC.

It is important to keep in mind that the rules for any given CC does NOT drive the rules on Ebay.

@nono-8172 

[katzrul15]

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@mam98031 wrote:

You are completely ignoring the fact that the buyer refused the shipment.  And different rules applies to that action by the buyer which I've repeatedly explained in this thread, so I won't bore you with it again.

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I really am not ignoring it - it is why I reached out to e-Bay in the first place.  I agree with you, 1000%.  But e-Bay's CS on social media, do not. 

There is nothing I could find on a remorse return that said you can withold original shipping or fees, etc.  Return shipping only and I was guessing I would/will need proof of that exact amount, which I will, but potentially not until Mid April.

As a Seller, I try to be fair and treat a Buyer as I would want to be treated.

This one was a struggle.  Ultimately made a business decision vs an emotional one.  But a struggle for sure.

Appreciate your posts.  As always, learn a lot from you and others who take the time to engage on the boards.  Thanks, again. 

[nono-8172]

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@katzrul15 wrote:

Also this was illuminated as well by the CS who indicated to return in full:

eBay reserves the right to seek reimbursement from the seller for amounts refunded to the buyer, if a buyer successfully appeals.

So in other words, yes, you can deny the Buyer a full refund and if/when the Buyer appeals, if granted, e-Bay can/will take it back from the Seller any way. 

Buyer Violated MBG - E-Bay still sides with Buyer? Why?

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Your buyer did not violate MBG. Here's the path:

1. Buyer started a remorse return request: No MBG is active during an eBay request, so there's no violation.

-- eBay is not involved and cannot take action during the work-it-out phase between buyer and seller.

If the buyer and seller come to an agreement, e.g. the seller refunds the buyer after the item is returned, the request closes.

2. If the buyer foolishly asks eBay to step in: MBG is now active, the request is closed, and a case is opened.

-- eBay is now involved, can now take action, the buyer will lose, and the case will close without a refund.

3. End-run around #2 to circumvent MBG, if the buyer appeals a partial refund, the request (not a case) was closed, so now eBay can/will take the rest of the partial refund back from the seller.

4. Buyer files at PayPal: MBG wasn't used. The buyer can't violate something they didn't use.

5. Buyer files a chargeback: MBG wasn't used. The buyer can't violate something they didn't use.

Request: No MBG, eBay can only advise, cannot take action

Case: MBG begins, eBay decides if any violation, takes action

[mam98031]

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@katzrul15 wrote:

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@mam98031 wrote:

You are completely ignoring the fact that the buyer refused the shipment.  And different rules applies to that action by the buyer which I've repeatedly explained in this thread, so I won't bore you with it again.

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I really am not ignoring it - it is why I reached out to e-Bay in the first place.  I agree with you, 1000%.  But e-Bay's CS on social media, do not. 

There is nothing I could find on a remorse return that said you can withold original shipping or fees, etc.  Return shipping only and I was guessing I would/will need proof of that exact amount, which I will, but potentially not until Mid April.

As a Seller, I try to be fair and treat a Buyer as I would want to be treated.

This one was a struggle.  Ultimately made a business decision vs an emotional one.  But a struggle for sure.

Appreciate your posts.  As always, learn a lot from you and others who take the time to engage on the boards.  Thanks, again. 

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You did not have to refund the buyer today.  I guess I don't understand why you did that ahead of the Community CSRs from responding to my earlier tag.  I respect it is your right to do that, I just simply don't understand, which that too is fine as I don't have to understand.  You need to do what is best for you.

IMHO the buyer got bad advice from Ebay and you got bad advice from Ebay.  Now I certainly could be wrong but I think it would be interesting to hear the other CSR to weigh in on this situation.

On a BR claim you can withhold shipping if you paid for the return, which you did.  It was refunding because they refused the shipment that I talked about original shipping, return shipping and any fees you couldn't recover.  I'm not at all sure you had to process that BR claim because the buyer was UNABLE to RETURN the item to you.  Refusing a shipment is NOT equal to them returning the item to you on an open claim.

I don't remember anyone on this thread asking or suggesting that you be unfair to this buyer.  I just think waiting one more day would not of hurt anything and may offer more clarity.

[mam98031]

Yes the buyer did violate the MBG when they REFUSED the shipment.  As has been posted on this thread a few times.  It voids the buyer protection via the MBG.

3.  If the seller was protected via a seller protection policy, Ebay will does not usually take the money from the seller.  However Ebay has made a mistake a few times.  Upon appeal the seller will be refunded.

4.  PP has an agreement with Ebay and the rules of the returns is Ebay rules, not PP rules.  Same with #5 and a credit card chargeback.

Ebay rules are Ebay's rule for the site.  It isn't the rules until such time that some other companies policy over rides Ebay's.  Sellers have to abide by the Ebay rules.  

Besides it would simply be ridiculous to think that sellers would not have to know only Ebay's rules for that of every type of credit card and payment service Ebay allows on the site.  There would be no way for sellers to keep up with all of that.  Which is why it does not play into this at all.  Ebay's rules are what counts.

[jasmen@ebay]

Morning @mam98031 what specifically would you like us to verify? Just so we're on the same page I wanted to ask, thanks in advance! 

[my-cottage-books-and-antiques]

The item has been returned and the OP refunded. I stand by what I've been saying:  ebay did nothing wrong here, the seller was---and, apparently, is confused---about return policies.

This is a simple remorse case: "buyer changed mind, found item at a better price" are both remorse reasons for a return. They do not trigger the ebay MBG.

IF the seller had a "no return" policy she could have declined the return request.

However, she accepts returns for any reason, as long as the request is made within her time frame (30 days)

She could also have declined this IF the request was made after 30 days, but it was made well within the 30 day period. So, there was no valid reason to decline the remorse request. If she had declined the request, the buyer could have asked ebay to step in (which does NOT magically transform this into an MBG claim, since the reason for the claim---remorse---hasn't changed)) and ebay would have correctly found for the buyer, since the only question would have been: was the request made within the 30 days?

This is NOT an MBG claim, and rules governing MBG claims do NOT apply.

There are really only two claims that can be made under MBG: INAD and INR. A remorse claim is NOT covered by ebay's MBG.

IF the buyer had requested a return for an Item Not As Described Claim, the act of refusing delivery would have voided the buyer's protection under the MBG. That is ebay policy, and it is easy to understand why ebay has that policy: a buyer who refuses delivery of an unopened package cannot claim to have inspected the item, so ebay will not protect the buyer under an INAD claim.

IF the buyer had requested a refund for an Item Not Received Claim,  the act of refusing delivery would also have voided the buyer's protection under the MBG. That is ebay policy, and it is easy to understand why ebay has that policy: As far as ebay is concerned, both the seller and carrier have done their job when the item is delivered to the buyer for acceptance by the buyer. In effect, the buyer HAS received the item , but he chooses not to accept the delivery that has been made, and it is returned to sender. The INR claim fails because the very act of declining to accept the proffered package is proof that the buyer did , in fact, receive the item. 

[my-cottage-books-and-antiques]

jasmen@ebay  While you're here, I would ask that the Community Team (or the Shipping Team) review my latest post in this thread and point out any errors they find. (The one that begins " The item has been returned...) Thanks.

[password9019]

ebay.....has no "staff".

[my-cottage-books-and-antiques]

jasmen@ebay  And if it helps, here's a somewhat simplified version:

Seller has a 30 day, buyer pays return shipping policy.

Package is delivered to buyer in a  timely fashion, but buyer refuses delivery and carrier returns package to seller.

Buyer has found same item for less, and changed mind about purchase, so opens return request as a remorse return. Buyer does NOT claim "item not received" NOR does he claim "Item nor as described". It's a simple remorse return, under the seller's own return policy, and brought well within the 30 days set by that policy.

In a remorse return case (NOT an MBG case), does the act of refusing delivery and returning the package to the seller in that manner absolve the seller of her responsibility to refund under her 30 day return policy?

Or is it an acceptable method of return for a refund in a remorse case? (In this case, the seller has acknowledged that the returned package ahs , in fact, been delivered back to the seller)

[fern*wood]

The buyer circumvented their requirement to pay the return shipping on a remorse return, since that was the seller's return policy.    This shouldn't be allowed.