Buyer Violated MBG - E-Bay still sides with Buyer? Why?

[katzrul15]

Buyer buys.

Buyer evidently changes mind - told e-Bay found cheaper. 

Parcel shipped same day as order/payment.  Arrives in 2 days, Buyer refuses parcel at Delivery.

Buyer wants full refund.  MBG says it is voided by Buyer refusal of parcel at delivery.

We reached out to e-Bay CS on social media.  They indicate we are to refund and it does not void MBG. 

Why not?  It is in written policy it does. 

Why do we owe Buyer a full refund??

[mam98031]

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@katzrul15 wrote:

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

In post 72 the op stated that they got their parcel back.

@katzrul15 

When you refunded there definitely was not an option of refunding in full or of refunding less the original shipping?  Since a remorse return was filed via phone, there should have been that option.

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There was the ability to reduce relative to the return.  However, I had already been told in writing by e-Bay CS on social media that only applies to the "condition" of the item for return reduction.  I argued that point and after re-reading the "UP to 50%" and how it applies (based on how e-Bay has it written), I refunded in full.  Also, a partial refund would not have resulted in returned FVFs.   It is clear and e-Bay drove this point home - the item has to be used, damaged, opened, etc.  The "item" - the UP to 50%, does not apply otherwise and after reading it closely, they are correct.

Up to 50% refund deduction for decreased value on used or damaged returns

When you issue a refund for an item that was returned after it was used or damaged by a buyer, and you have a track record of delivering on your service promise, we’ll give you the ability to protect yourself by deducting up to 50% of the refund to recover the decreased value of the item. If there are any issues with buyers that may negatively impact you, we’ll take care of them by removing any negative and neutral feedback, defects, and open cases in service metrics.

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You are talking about the deductions available to TRSs.  This has nothing to do with that.  It was a Buyer's Remorse Claim.

But no need to argue that point anymore.  You decided to refund the buyer in full and that is your decision to make.  It wasn't necessary, but again, your choice.

[mam98031]

Yes you are correct.  And if they could have waited until tomorrow for one of the Community CSRs to respond as I tagged them earlier, we would likely have the appropriate way to process this mess.  But the seller, which is their right, decided differently.

[katzrul15]

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@mam98031 wrote:

Yes you are correct.  And if they could have waited until tomorrow for one of the Community CSRs to respond as I tagged them earlier, we would likely have the appropriate way to process this mess.  But the seller, which is their right, decided differently.

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Did not have until tomorrow to reply to refund without e-Bay stepping in. 

And I did address with e-Bay CS on social media, which are American based dedicated Seller CS. 

[this*old*attic]

No arguing on that one - Katz shouldn’t have to pay it if UPS charges a return fee. She should fight that using the online info.

But it has nothing to do with the MBG itself, and I can’t think of a scenario where Ebay would scoop up a return charge for the buyer.

With luck, there won’t be a second UPS charge and it’s all moot.

[albertabrightalberta]

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@inhawaii wrote:

Why would the buyer do this? 

What do they have to gain by "returning" refusing delivery?  Nothing.

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What the buyer had to gain by refusing delivery is the savings of not having to pay for return shipping, a considerable savings for this large, heavy item.

[this*old*attic]

@farmalljr 

We aren’t confused and that’s not accurate.

Even if Ebay creates a label, buyer has no way to use it. Katz is unlikely to be charged again for shipping unless UPS does so - and there is online info to fight that.

[this*old*attic]

@luckythewinner 

I’m unclear on any scenario that gets buyer original shipping back, other than SNAD.

What else is the worry here?

Plus that’s all it is - worry when the chips haven’t fallen yet. Unless the item has arrived back?

[albertabrightalberta]

My opinion is that the buyer received and followed inaccurate advice from CS and the US-based Ebay employees compounded the error by not fully understanding that the buyer violated the remorse return policy. 

[this*old*attic]

Which major detail would that be?

The fact that simple remorse isn’t an MBG matter?

And no, filing is NEVER required. I don’t know where that even comes from.

Ebay shoves return links under buyers’ noses and sellers tell buyers to file all the time - but simple cooperation hasn’t been outlawed yet unless I missed the memo.

I refunded a few weeks ago, initiated it completely from my side, and had the exact same drop down choices as if the buyer had filed.

And that didn’t surprise me one bit - perfectly sensible. No different than refunding from PayPal before Managed Payments.

[this*old*attic]

@mam98031 

Thats not correct, at least for all carriers.

I just returned two custom shampoo packages unopened via USPS. At least with them, it retains original tracking number and you can follow it all the way back to its point of origin.

Once the boxes arrived, I called the company and got my refund. In full.

Long story, had cancelled the subscription twice at that point (but don’t see how it’s any different than cancelling a single order before it’s arrival).

And another wrinkle - if they hadn’t, I’d have gone to PayPal and then my bank.

Katz’ customer can do the same thing.

[farmalljr]

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@this*old*attic wrote:

@farmalljr 

We aren’t confused and that’s not accurate.

Even if Ebay creates a label, buyer has no way to use it. Katz is unlikely to be charged again for shipping unless UPS does so - and there is online info to fight that.

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I mean REALLY? Have you ever sold here before? Ever had a return? You can get USPS, UPS, AND FedEx labels directly though eBay. They also give buyers a return label. 

The buyer CERTAINLY has a "way to use it". Tape it to the box and drop it off at a UPS ship center or call for a pick up... 

Katz already told you, returns cost her money. She has a UPS account. She is an experienced seller.  Obviously, they have been through this before. 

So no, I DON'T think you get it. This whole situation was not hard for me to understand. I've been through returns myself. I've had buyers refuse delivery before. I know how it works. The only thing I have NOT seen, is eBay demanding the seller refund a buyer that broke the rules, like in this situation. 

So yes, what I have said IS 100% accurate. 

[this*old*attic]

@farmalljr 

Yep

And nope, not when it’s already en route via a refusal.

Thats all the time I have to waste right now.

Bye

[farmalljr]

A refusal of delivery is NOT a return. Even though someone else has already put it in the thread, I will quote eBay's own policy:

The buyer refused delivery of the item:

Covered:

• The item arrived with shipping cost still owing because the seller didn't apply enough postage

Not covered:

• The buyer refused delivery for any other reason

A return is a situation where a buyer receives (aka takes delivery) of an item and after receiving it, decides to return it for some reason. They go and open a return, and generally get a label from eBay (or they can buy their own and upload tracking). Then they send it back (as in with a new tracking number).

In a return, the buyer is responsible for damages, if it gets damaged when returning it (just like a seller is responsible to get the item to the buyer is good condition), the buyer is responsible. 

So, as you can see a "return" is different that just refusing a package. MUCH different. If the package is damaged in the return to sender process, the buyer isn't responsible. The buyer was DUE to pay postage both ways under Katz' policy. Now they aren't paying a dime. 

In the LEAST, ebay should have delayed the case until Katz got her package back, and inspected it. It could be damaged, who knows. In the VERY LEAST eBay should be following their own written policies. I've had screwy buyers pull this before, and I have never been told I have to refund them 100%, because I didn't. I'm not eating the shipping on a refusal case. I'm also not accepting returns outside my 30 day window. About the time eBay thinks they are going to force that on me, I'll close my store. I follow the rules like Katz does. 

Quite frankly, I don't care if you don't want to discuss it anymore. I clearly saw what was going on from the beginning. I clearly understood the situation. I clearly know what eBay's policy IS in regards to this situation. It utterly AMAZES and BAFFLES me that so many "experienced" sellers don't.  The same sellers who advise new sellers. All of us make it clear to new people they NEED to understand the rules, but, ironically, some of the senior members don't seem to understand and/or grasp them. 

I can only imagine how frustrating this situation was for Katz, and then to have other senior/experienced sellers pile on. Goodness gracious. 

The refusal of the package took absolute precedence over whatever return points you all are trying to talk about. Everything after that has nothing to do with the situation. 

[katzrul15]

One last comment on this today....

Typically when you reach out on social media, my experience has been to interact with just 1 CS, even over multiple PMs back and forth on messenger.  I counted 4 different ones that interacted/replied.  Hard to have continuity.

If you read the returns section for a Seller, where it outlines what the Seller and Buyer are responsible for...the most you can deduct is return shipping, unless condition is altered.  Many posting about various deductions, but not e-Bay's intent.  An area to be careful, for sure.

Also this was illuminated as well by the CS who indicated to return in full:

eBay reserves the right to seek reimbursement from the seller for amounts refunded to the buyer, if a buyer successfully appeals.

So in other words, yes, you can deny the Buyer a full refund and if/when the Buyer appeals, if granted, e-Bay can/will take it back from the Seller any way.  Did not realize e-Bay could grant a reversal to the Buyer and ding the Seller for that.  They quoted the entire section. 

And if as a Seller, you will not know cost(s) until you receive your UPS Mar bill in April....it just seemed like the potential for a lose/lose.

One last thing - claim was approved by e-Bay without engaging me as a Seller.  I know many have posted that e-Bay has streamlined this process so Seller does not need to approve it, etc. 

Likely a great thing for a Buyer....Seller, not so much.

Again - TY to those who posted.  Frustrating way to learn this concept.  Seems like there should be a mechanism to prevent this, but evidently not.  Appreciate the illuminaries....salty lesson for sure.  Take care.

[farmalljr]

Katz it's unfortunate eBay is NOT following it's own written policies. I think at some point, if they do this enough, it's going to cause them a lot of troubles. While eBay can make their TOS as they see fit, they have to follow their own contract or they nullify it. Everyone says that a lawsuit would go nowhere if you tried suing eBay, and I generally agree with that. 

But in instances like yours, eBay loses it's merits and has nullified it's own contract. If that is shown/proven to a judge, and they agree, they could face some serious problems. If they do this enough, it will be inevitable at some point, there may be some kind of class action. 

I agree about the deductions in a return. I don't think it was ever meant to be something for sellers to just keep money for no reason other than spite. 

This whole situation was handled very poorly on eBay and the buyers part. It's written policy about refusing delivery is STILL written policy. If they no longer want to use that as policy, then they need to rewrite it, not just start taking a different action. 

I know this just highlights how much risk we all take on selling here. There never seems to be clear rules that we sellers can depend on being followed. We all want happy buyers, but not when everyone is getting screwed over.