05-18-2018 04:21 AM
Hi Everyone,
My name is Jim
I'm new here to ebay. On my first day, I posted a few ads, and got three people that wrote me expressing some interest in my offers. I replied to them right away but got no response in return. I then began to search for these customers and found little to go on. One appeared and disappeared, another had no activity for a month from what I could see. The first two that wrote me came pretty close together and both from St. Louis MO. I found it all a bit suspicious. The next step was to look into fake buyers and found that ebay has a history of fake buyers and sellers, which lead me this morning to learn more about fraud here on ebay.
Well, I found that there were posts from some very upset sellers who had been victims of fraud, and learned that ebay and Amazon protects and supports the buyers much better than the sellers. This imbalance is extremely detrimental to both platforms by destroying the sellers confidence. This kind of mentality is good for ebay and Amazon by attracting ambitious sellers trying to grow a business, and it offers a free for all for thieves. The eventual outcome is, both platforms fail, while counting your money, and the thieves walk away with your products and we the sellers are left with our bills and ruined reputations, no?
What would you say to a solution like this? Keep in mind, this is an open discussion, a brainstorming if you will, process.
What if there was a clearing house as it were between the buyers and sellers. An escrow account of sorts that would be an intermediary to hold funds for clearing of passage from the buyer to the sellers, and to act as a receiver of goods from the sellers to the buyers. In my view, this would serve the sellers to both store and ship products and to prove both description and functionality, a quality control center of sorts to protect the sellers and buyers from fraud on both parts, and to ensure payments are made successfully to the sellers for their wares.
Let's begin shall we? What are your thoughts, I'm intrested to hear responses from both buyers and sellers.
Thank you.
05-18-2018 01:54 PM
@caninekopz wrote:Really,
Then look at my feedback and tell me I am a scammer. There are a lot of people that shop and sell like this. My cost is "THE LOWEST" here all the time. Not a scammer, just dont want to deal with the **bleep**
If you want to inflate your cost to deal with it an play games then do so, that is your business plan not mine
Rich
You really shouldn't call attention to that feedback, it doesn't put you in the best light for an argument of this nature
05-18-2018 01:59 PM
@caninekopz wrote:I agree. Then it would be my decision to adjust how I choose to sell my product. I may have a huge following of people that choose to buy from me becuase they have used me or trust me. I can continue to offer lower prices because I do not deal with returns.......
And Like I said, I do returns but on my conditions. Look at my feedback and people are happy.
If you looked at my listings and saw all of my listings were NO RETURN and then looked at my feedback, would you buy from me if my price was lower.
You see a educated buyer is important. It all comes down to .....I did not look at what you were selling so now pay all the cost because I don't want it.
If not then buy from the person who offers returns.
What I don't understand is we are taking away choices. If my buyers are happy and spread my business then Ebay benefits. If they are not happy and ebay sees a pattern....then drop me out.
I have all of my businesses tied to an EIN. I am a professional company. I have a hard address and store. No reason for me to try to rip people off.
Again, the feedback argument doesn't make you look good when buyers complain about your policies
05-18-2018 02:31 PM - edited 05-18-2018 02:32 PM
"
You see a educated buyer is important. It all comes down to .....I did not look at what you were selling so now pay all the cost because I don't want it."
While some buyers may not be responsible and do their buyer's due diligence, that does not mean all buyer are like that. You can be extremely careful about vetting the seller and the listing, and still get a SNAD item.
While YOU may be a professional company, many others are not. Buyer should not be on the hook when they get something that is not as described. That is why the MBG is there, and that is why it overrides any no returns policies.
05-18-2018 03:00 PM
Many buyers just want the item they bought in the condition stated.
Many save negative feedback for truly egregious offenses.
Many decide to just live with their inaccurately described item, and only file SNAD when absolutely necessary.
05-18-2018 03:35 PM
@lte_owner wrote:Hi Everyone,
My name is Jim
I'm new here to ebay. On my first day, I posted a few ads, and got three people that wrote me expressing some interest in my offers. I replied to them right away but got no response in return. I then began to search for these customers and found little to go on. One appeared and disappeared, another had no activity for a month from what I could see. The first two that wrote me came pretty close together and both from St. Louis MO. I found it all a bit suspicious. The next step was to look into fake buyers and found that ebay has a history of fake buyers and sellers, which lead me this morning to learn more about fraud here on ebay.
Well, I found that there were posts from some very upset sellers who had been victims of fraud, and learned that ebay and Amazon protects and supports the buyers much better than the sellers. This imbalance is extremely detrimental to both platforms by destroying the sellers confidence. This kind of mentality is good for ebay and Amazon by attracting ambitious sellers trying to grow a business, and it offers a free for all for thieves. The eventual outcome is, both platforms fail, while counting your money, and the thieves walk away with your products and we the sellers are left with our bills and ruined reputations, no?
What would you say to a solution like this? Keep in mind, this is an open discussion, a brainstorming if you will, process.
What if there was a clearing house as it were between the buyers and sellers. An escrow account of sorts that would be an intermediary to hold funds for clearing of passage from the buyer to the sellers, and to act as a receiver of goods from the sellers to the buyers. In my view, this would serve the sellers to both store and ship products and to prove both description and functionality, a quality control center of sorts to protect the sellers and buyers from fraud on both parts, and to ensure payments are made successfully to the sellers for their wares.
Let's begin shall we? What are your thoughts, I'm intrested to hear responses from both buyers and sellers.
Thank you.
Hi Jim, Welcome to the fray! I have not read the replies yet, I'm sure they're... uh... interesting.
I'll just address your points.
While the clearinghouse idea has some merit, there is some history that suggests this is unworkable. I presume this would be an eBay run operation, and there have been some limited and more targeted "clearinghouse" operations in the past that suggest eBay cannot run such a thing properly.
There is the Global Shipping Program, which is only a shipping middleman operation for international purchases, that only focuses on the shipping aspect. It is run by an eBay "partner" (Pitney Bowes). They have a widely reported history of repackaging parcels, often doing a poor job of packing (and reducing box size and packaging, no doubt to lower the volume/weight of items). Items arrive broken as a result, and eBay/PB has not always covered the loss as the program Terms suggest. Additionally the cost is sometimes way out of line with other shipping options and buyers sometimes incur taxes/duty that is either not required or not collected by destination countries in most situations.
There was the eBay Valet, a program where the seller sent the item to eBay, and they (their contractor) listed and shipped the item to the buyer. That program had a history of poor packaging too, in addition to writing poor listings and not being very good at getting stuff sold for appropriate money. That program had additional fees to the seller (owner of the item) too.
Once upon a long time ago, there was two way transparent feedback on eBay, and there was no "Money Back Guarantee" program. While it had its problems, and detractors, it was a balanced approach, and the feedback part kept everyone interested in resolving issues and treating others decently. Because it was pretty much the only "protection", users paid attention to what their trading partner was up to and were protective of their feedback profiles. The transparency made it so everyone could usually tell who was lying, who was trustworthy, and who to avoid - both with regards to a particular transaction, and in general. You could see everyone's ID, everyone's purchase history, and the listings that were involved in any negative feedback.
This was very different than traditional retail, but with independent 3rd party sellers, and auctions, eBay was very different than traditional retail. It wasn't Walmart, or Amazon. Now, eBay wants to be like Walmart and Amazon. Problem is, eBay still has 100% independent 3rd party sellers, and it still isn't Walmart. Despite them trying to move dispute resolution and feedback concepts into that model, it isn't ever going to be Walmart or Amazon either. If they were to get there (as is their wish), they'll be gone, because eBay sellers are not going to be able to better Amazon and Walmart, who are giant corporations that own many boatloads of inventory and handle it themselves.
My proposed solution is stop trying to be Amazon and Walmart, and put it back like it was (say, around 2006 or so). It's not a universally popular solution, and it's certainly not one eBay is ever going to embrace now - they're committed to being big Fixed Price NIB consumer retail goods, with policies and functionality that commonly come with that.
05-18-2018 03:42 PM
That is what the OLD eBay was like (circa 2000). The wild west. Unsuspecting buyers sent money orders and checks to strangers' PO Boxes and in turn, these sellers sent their GARBAGE to the buyers. eBay didn't have SNADs or INRs to speak of. If a buyer got ripped off and had the temerity to leave a negative feedback, he/she got a retaliatory neagative feedback for his/her troubles.
What protection did buyers have? SQUAT.
Yet eBay became the first successful selling operation on the www... the only one for many, many years... and became a Fortune 500 company... all long before ANY of the "solutions" to what you describe were launched. Apparently the vast majority of transactions did not really end that way, or else eBay would have disappeared, not turned into the 800 lb. gorilla of internet selling... or else the world must be just full of really not-too-bright people.
Since trying to "fix" what made them a Fortune 500 company, they've been struggling, with buyers and sellers both increasingly unhappy, and they now lag ecommerce as a whole in growth and popularity.
05-18-2018 03:45 PM
If you want to set your own rules you can start your own site. I've had mine for nearly 20 years. I offer full refunds for returns including return shipping. I think I've had five out of thousands and thousands of sales.
Yet most sellers who sell here... including many sellers every bit as good as you or I... report a completely different sort of experience with returns and refunds on eBay. I wonder why that is?
05-18-2018 03:48 PM
Also the percentage of problematic transaction, true SNADs, and horrendous customer service has drastically risen. This is a thread from Dec. by well known, respected, knowledgable sellers who outline their recent purchases and the customer service they received. It's horrible.
https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/I-m-beginning-to-see-what-buyers-contend-with/m-p/27854770
Right. So you seem to agree that this ain't working. The more "protection" eBay offers, the more "buyer-centric" the site becomes, the more they tighten the screws on sellers.... the worse it gets?
05-18-2018 04:49 PM
Hi, ted!
What I'm saying is that there is even more reason now than ever before for Ebay to have the MBG Buyer Protection. You see the cause and effect as the more protection Ebay provides and the more buyer centric they are, the worse it gets. The cause and effect I see is the more unsuccessful transactions, the more Ebay tries to protect the buyer and the site, so buyers will continue to buy here. I don't see why sellers would throw up inaccurate listings and provide horrible service because they are reacting to the MBG policies. Many may just hope the buyer won't want to be bothered to do anything about the not as described item they received. Many fight a legitimate SNAD tooth and nail.
Sellers are not throwing up questionable listings and thinking every buyer is a scammer because of the protection. Is it due to carelessness, no effort, or is it outright deception? Who knows? The protection is there because the listings have become increasingly inaccurate and careless, the seller antagonistic and abusive, and the buyer needs this protection. I believe they instituted the MBG the same year they took away the seller's ability to neg a buyer. Buyers were leaving and they took steps to correct it. Many left buyers a neg when the buyer posted an honest neg for the seller; the neg for the buyer was false, retaliatory, and abusive. It was punishment and revenge.
Many sellers think every buyer is a scammer and there is no such thing as a legitimate SNAD. There are many reasons for lack of sales; fighting legitimate SNADs, in an abusive manner, could be one reason. Many buyers just leave after one such experience, they don't hang around to go through it again. IF they do continue to buy, they may just go to a neg and a dispute because they don't want to be subjected to that again. Sellers won the battle but lost the war.
Getting rid of the MBG is not the answer, especially given the extremely high percentage of transactions that currently go south, as evidence by that thread whose link I posted. I bought four things recently; three of the four came not as described. That's 75%. Since I can live with it or repair it, I haven't filed any cases.
There was a thread once by a buyer who got kicked out of the MBG. She bought all her Christmas presents on Ebay; she had a similar percentage of items not as described. She filed cases on everything and left appropriate feedback. She said she will never buy Christmas presents on Ebay again. I had a similar percentage of not as described in that same month, December. I just didn't file many cases or leave bad feedback, so my MBG is intact. But every buyer who had a legitimate SNAD, who was abused by the seller, may have left Ebay and told ten people, and they told ten people, and so on...
05-18-2018 04:52 PM
@ted_200 wrote:That is what the OLD eBay was like (circa 2000). The wild west. Unsuspecting buyers sent money orders and checks to strangers' PO Boxes and in turn, these sellers sent their GARBAGE to the buyers. eBay didn't have SNADs or INRs to speak of. If a buyer got ripped off and had the temerity to leave a negative feedback, he/she got a retaliatory neagative feedback for his/her troubles.
What protection did buyers have? SQUAT.
Yet eBay became the first successful selling operation on the www... the only one for many, many years... and became a Fortune 500 company... all long before ANY of the "solutions" to what you describe were launched. Apparently the vast majority of transactions did not really end that way, or else eBay would have disappeared, not turned into the 800 lb. gorilla of internet selling... or else the world must be just full of really not-too-bright people.
Since trying to "fix" what made them a Fortune 500 company, they've been struggling, with buyers and sellers both increasingly unhappy, and they now lag ecommerce as a whole in growth and popularity.
ted_200,
What you wrote is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
Here is some real perspective with some FACTS:
eBay was founded in 1995, had its IPO on September 24, 1998 at $18.00 per share. At the close of trading on its first day of going public, the market capitalization of eBay was $1.88 Billion.
As of the close of trading on May 15, 2018, the market cap of eBay was $38.17 Billion. Even factoring in the market cap of PayPal at $94.03 Billion brings the combined value of these two entities to $142.20 Billion.
Amazon was founded by Jeff Bezos on July 5, 1994 and went public May 15, 1997 at $18.00 per share and its market capitalization was about $440 Million.
As of the close of trading on May 15, 2018, the market cap of Amazon was $767.51 Billion.
Amazon, in my honest opinion, is doing as well as it is because its founder, Jeff Bezos, is focussed on the business he founded whereas eBay has had three different CEOs running the business after its founder, Pierre Omidyar, handed the reigns over to Meg Whitman, who later hand selected her successor, John Donahoe, who then left to go to PayPal after the spinoff. Now, we have Devin Wenig and I do not really know what he’s going to do (nor do I care).
Amazon ranks number one in “Customer Experience” according to Forsee Results scoring an 87 while eBay only got an 82 on a 100-point scale.
https://www.foresee.com/blog/amazon-ranks-number-one-customer-experience/
In my opinion, Meg Whitman ignored the litany of buyer complaints for YEARS. Kevin Pursglove, eBay spokesperson, touted fraud statistics that were simply NOT believable nor credible. As far as I am concerned, eBay is reaping what it sowed and eBay truly showed its contempt for its users when it hid user IDs. eBay lost the buyers’ confidence a LONG TIME ago and they are far too late to try and regain it with their measures.
As far as I am aware, Amazon is much tougher on its sellers than eBay is on its. Amazon, I surmise since I don’t have actual figures, maybe has one-tenth the number of sellers on its platform than eBay has on its. Yet Amazon’s financial numbers/results are enormous. So, who is really funding the growth? The sellers? Nope. It’s the buyers that spend THEIR money that has made Amazon the giant that it is.
The thing is Amazon does sell product, for example, the Kindle, so Amazon has “skin in the game” and its OWN reputation on the line so it is no surprise to me why Amazon is as tough as it is on its sellers.
This is the last post I am going to make today.
Godzilla_Goose
05-18-2018 04:55 PM
On my first day, I posted a few ads, and got three people that wrote me expressing some interest in my offers.
You made listings, offers or what?
05-18-2018 05:00 PM
"Once upon a long time ago, there was two way transparent feedback on eBay, and there was no "Money Back Guarantee" program. While it had its problems, and detractors, it was a balanced approach, and the feedback part kept everyone interested in resolving issues and treating others decently. Because it was pretty much the only "protection", users paid attention to what their trading partner was up to and were protective of their feedback profiles. The transparency made it so everyone could usually tell who was lying, who was trustworthy, and who to avoid - both with regards to a particular transaction, and in general. You could see everyone's ID, everyone's purchase history, and the listings that were involved in any negative feedback."
---------
I'm a member since 1997.
The above is not necessarily true.
eBayers back then (like now) have multiple accounts.
Fraudulent sellers could 'burn' through a few IDs a year if they wished,
creating new IDs to sell with, (padded with penny recipe listings, or whatever) anytime their fraudulent actions caught up on their feedback.
Lynn
05-18-2018 05:04 PM - edited 05-18-2018 05:05 PM
@godzilla_goose wrote:This is the last post I am going to make today.
I get such a kick out of it every time I see you post that! LOL!
05-18-2018 05:38 PM
I don't know about any cause and effect. I just know that problem transactions from sketchy sellers is up - according to you, according to many others, and according to my own buying here.
I had a couple of unsatisfactory purchases under the "old way". I've had a couple more under the new way. Problem is, with the new eBay, I don't buy but maybe 10% as much ($ and transactions both) as I did before one-way f/b and the MBG and the other stuff showed up.
I'm just saying this doesn't seem to be working.
WRT goose's post, all that market capitalization and stock performance stuff is just Wall St. There's no doubt Amazon is way bigger and way more valuable than eBay today, because it's geared to NIB consumer retail goods - it's a way bigger market, which is of course why eBay has headed down that road. But Amazon didn't actually make a profit selling stuff until very recently - they lost money for decades, part of that is how they managed to grow so quickly... liberal refunds, Free Shipping, etc.
My own theory is a lot of the better eBay sellers who are in the NIB fixed price consumer goods market jumped ship. What's left behind isn't so hot, and that doesn't bode well for eBay's bid to become the next big Amazon. Meanwhile, a lot of the people who made eBay a Fortune 500 company (before any NIB consumer fixed price stuff was here very much) are left to head over to another smaller site or have gone back to putting the stuff in their driveway on Fri./Sat. mornings. That's going to turn eBay into a lousy version of AliExpress.
05-18-2018 05:40 PM