Fraud feedback: Solution Proposed

[lte_owner]

Hi Everyone,

My name is Jim

I'm new here to ebay.  On my first day, I posted a few ads, and got three people that wrote me expressing some interest in my offers.  I replied to them right away but got no response in return.  I then began to search for these customers and found little to go on.  One appeared and disappeared, another had no activity for a month from what I could see.  The first two that wrote me came pretty close together and both from St. Louis MO.  I found it all a bit suspicious.  The next step was to look into fake buyers and found that ebay has a history of fake buyers and sellers, which lead me this morning to learn more about fraud here on ebay.

Well, I found that there were posts from some very upset sellers who had been victims of fraud, and learned that ebay and Amazon protects and supports the buyers much better than the sellers.  This imbalance is extremely detrimental to both platforms by destroying the sellers confidence.  This kind of mentality is good for ebay and Amazon by attracting ambitious sellers trying to grow a business, and it offers a free for all for thieves.  The eventual outcome is, both platforms fail, while counting your money, and the thieves walk away with your products and we the sellers are left with our bills and ruined reputations, no?

What would you say to a solution like this?  Keep in mind, this is an open discussion, a brainstorming if you will, process.

What if there was a clearing house as it were between the buyers and sellers.  An escrow account of sorts that would be an intermediary to hold funds for clearing of passage from the buyer to the sellers, and to act as a receiver of goods from the sellers to the buyers.  In my view, this would serve the sellers to both store and ship products and to prove both description and functionality, a quality control center of sorts to protect the sellers and buyers from fraud on both parts, and to ensure payments are made successfully to the sellers for their wares.

Let's begin shall we?  What are your thoughts, I'm intrested to hear responses from both buyers and sellers.

Thank you.

[castlemagicmemories]

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@lewisburggold wrote:

Not saying its going to happen.  The buyers are sending us bricks but thats ok right.  That makes it just fine.  Really?

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No, that is not right.  But neither are sellers who create inaccurate listing and expect the buyer to just keep the item, too bad, so sad.  

It would be nice if each side acted honorably.  But this is not a perfect world.  For the site to work, it needs both buyers and sellers, but sellers won't be here long if there are no buyers.  Buyers won't come if there are no sellers.  While each is important, buyers spending money needs to happen for sustainability.

[caninekopz]

No I am not missing any points.  I am not a trial board for people to decide if they like something or not.  Most people have a very good idea of what they want. 

If you are a bad business owner then Ebay should boot you out.  Not steal your money.

Ebay should not be an arbitrator in this issue.  They can hire one or develop a professional department to deal with that because currently they are falling short.

Damaged issues should be dealt with the shipping company and most times both sides need to work together (photos) to get this accomplished.  Too many times a claim is made and then the seller is out.  

You see Ebay should not be taking any sides, but rather provide a safe place for all to do business.  If I have my business practices clear and consise, and you choose to do business with me, then so be it.  Again, if you do not like the no return policy, then please do not do business with me.  If I do not do enough business then maybe I need to change my policies.  

I have read on here in the last few days alone of people loosing thousands of dollars because Ebay just took money from the seller and gave to the buyer.  That is flat out theft.  No other word for it. 

Look I am no stranger to crooks.  They come on both sides.  Ebay should concentrate on making this a safe place for all and quit forcing selling and return policies.  We are not employees.  

And I would never say you should not sell online if you want to accept everything you sell back in any condition and pay for shipping both ways.  If that is the way you want to sell and tack on extra pricing then please do so, that is your model.  Mine is to provide good, quality merchandise at the lowest possible price.  You will get what I promise and describe.  Why would you say I shouldn't be selling online?  Is there not a place for both of us?

[castlemagicmemories]

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@caninekopz wrote:

No I am not missing any points.  I am not a trial board for people to decide if they like something or not.  Most people have a very good idea of what they want. 

If you are a bad business owner then Ebay should boot you out.  Not steal your money.

Ebay should not be an arbitrator in this issue.  They can hire one or develop a professional department to deal with that because currently they are falling short.

Damaged issues should be dealt with the shipping company and most times both sides need to work together (photos) to get this accomplished.  Too many times a claim is made and then the seller is out.  

You see Ebay should not be taking any sides, but rather provide a safe place for all to do business.  If I have my business practices clear and consise, and you choose to do business with me, then so be it.  Again, if you do not like the no return policy, then please do not do business with me.  If I do not do enough business then maybe I need to change my policies.  

I have read on here in the last few days alone of people loosing thousands of dollars because Ebay just took money from the seller and gave to the buyer.  That is flat out theft.  No other word for it. 

Look I am no stranger to crooks.  They come on both sides.  Ebay should concentrate on making this a safe place for all and quit forcing selling and return policies.  We are not employees.  

And I would never say you should not sell online if you want to accept everything you sell back in any condition and pay for shipping both ways.  If that is the way you want to sell and tack on extra pricing then please do so, that is your model.  Mine is to provide good, quality merchandise at the lowest possible price.  You will get what I promise and describe.  Why would you say I shouldn't be selling online?  Is there not a place for both of us?

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You will get what I promise and what I describe.  That is great that you do that, but many sellers SAY they do that but they don't.  I've asked sellers about things that were of concern and not clear in pictures, and not listed in the description, only to be told the item was fine.  Imagine that~the item comes with the very damage I questioned.  When I mentioned this, sellers (this didn't happen just once) admitted they never checked the item when I asked!  No returns can be used by careless or unscrupulous sellers who think it means just that, you are stuck with it, sucker!

Many who do list as accepting returns fight returns.  They just list returns accepted for better visibility.

[18704d]

"If I have my business practices clear and consise, and you choose to do business with me, then so be it.  Again, if you do not like the no return policy, then please do not do business with me.  If I do not do enough business then maybe I need to change my policies."

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I'm certain you'd be 'lumped together' with all the other True No Return sellers on eBay,

and be 'punished' according to their reputations.

If True No Return sellers, can scam buyers by sending a brick,

then the word will get out, and True No Return sellers will be avoided here like the plague.

Lynn

[godzilla_goose]

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@jolking-0 wrote:

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@lewisburggold wrote:

All ebay has to do to protect sellers is back up no returns.   No returns period.  Thats how we protect our sellers.  If you buy it its yours.   Thats what we see anyway.  Any scammers we have delt with are finding loopoles through the returns prosess and ebay has nothing to protect us and has continued to allow scammers to do so.    Were fighting for no returns ever.  This will solve a very large problem.  Then ebay can weed out the shady sellers and make everything fun again.  Best regards

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If eBay did that nobody would ever buy here again. That would make this site ripe for scam sellers to sell any piece of junk they wanted to and and the buyer would have no recourse.

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jolking-0,

To back up what I said in my earlier post about the OLD eBay and buyers being ripped off, here is an article from April, 2001:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/18/business/technology-ebay-suspends-coin-seller-over-delivery-concer...

I was around when this happened in real time and there were many posts about this on the OLD eBay Coin Board.

[the*dog*ate*my*tablecloth]

I talk a lot about a couple of bad transactions I had back then (out of a bunch). In one the seller didn't ship for weeks. Finally got tired of me emailing and shipped and the item was a piece of trash. I had no way to get my money back, tried talking nicely to the seller they said "too bad, so sad". I negged them, they negged me back.

The other really memorable seller sold me a set of vintage china pitchers from England. They showed up at my house with Home Goods stickers on the bottom. Were obviously NOT vintage as promised. I asked to ship back and the seller accused ME of switching the item. I said I was going to leave them a neg and they threatened me right back. We were at a stalemate. I still have the stupid things and it still annoys the heck out of me every time I see them.

The platform got even worse once Ebay instituted mutual withdrawal. Even board members suggested sellers leave retaliatory negs. EVEN WHEN UNDESERVED so that the buyer would agree to remove the feedback.

Never again.

[emerald40]

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@the*dog*ate*my*tablecloth wrote:

So buyers are supposed to be sitting ducks for fraud? Buyer buys an iPhone and is sent a brick and Ebay says too bad, so sad, it's a final sale?

Yeah, that's not going to happen. There is no way to get around the law with substantial breach of contract. If the seller sends a SNAD item they violated the contract and everything goes back to the buyer.

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Yup.  This was basically what we had at the beginning of ebay.  Buyers were at a seller's mercy.  They could sell you junk.  They could cash your check and send you nothing.

That would never work today when buyers have so many other options, venues where they are well protected.  Ebay would lose virtually all of their buyers.

[emerald40]

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@the*dog*ate*my*tablecloth wrote:

It would go back to the way it used to be. Which was manageable back then because the site attracted mainly collectors who needed somewhere to buy and sell. Now that the site attracts mostly commodity buyers and sellers there is nothing to keep people here when the scamming starts. If buyers lose buyer protection there will be no buyers.

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Also back then very few people had computers .  No smart phones or tablets.   Thieves were still plying their five finger discount.  They had not yet found Internet shopping and a whole new way of stealing.

[emerald40]

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@caninekopz wrote:

Yes I understand that.  I encourage people to look and see.  If you dont want to buy y stuff online then come into my store....youll get a better price anyway.

What I am saying is if you as a buyer do not like my terms of AS, NO RETURNS, then dont buy here.  When I do not have any sales then who is to blame but ME......See how that works.

But you will find that I sell quite a bit.

And for people who are really sincere and return what I send them, they pay shipping back and I do take returns, but on my own terms.

I do not like scammers, thieves and liars.

Rich 

__________________________________________________

And if someone sends you something other then what you sent, you will still have to refund them.

There is one rule here and it is ebay's rules.  Anything else you put in beyond that is unenforceable.

And that is why for those who want to rewrite them, should really think about opening their own website.

Ebay's rules are based on real life.  They have to be able to compete with other venues and B&M stores.  All of this might be good for the seller, but it is not going to fly for buyers.

Different rules for different sellers.  That would get very confusing for the buyer, especially those viewing them on their phone.   Besides, buyers would just go to their credit card company.

So sellers with a no return policy would probably not be able to accept credit cards or paypal as they would not going along with it. 

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[emerald40]

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@jolking-0 wrote:

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@caninekopz wrote:

What I am saying is let the buyers and sellers deal with this.

So like I said, Ebay can promote the people that want to get ripped off and accept free returns (60 days really).   I am not arguing that point.  People should feel very comfortable knowing they can use an item for 59 days and then return it all used up.  Use a swimsuit for the summer return it in the fall.  

If I as a buyer want to pay a higher price (rental fee) for that then fine.

When I buy something I look at keeping it.  I find the lowest price with the best feedback and buy it.

You see the problem here is this.

Ebay can only provide cheap prices.  Yes you as a seller may have the same thing as I do.  Mine is 10.00 cheaper.  Cheaper because I do not want take returns.  You will not sell anything because EBAY CAN ONLY OFFER CHEAPER PRICES the way it is set up now.  Ebay does not sell customer service.  I mean really, they force all returns now, so what can you offer that I do not and mine is 10.00 cheaper?

People do not get that by allowing different business models, you can then sell different levels of customer service.  Now you have something to sell your item at a higher price for.  But as it stands Ebay wants everybody here to be like an employee.  Ebay will set the way you do business and then we do all the work.  So why then would someone pay 10.00 more for your item if we have the exact same thing, my feedback is exactly like yours and my shipping is 100% on time with rave review?

So let me sell mine at NO RETURNS and take the chance of people not buying my product, that would be my decision.  It will allow you to sell yours as a higher price for offering returns.

Just like going into Macy's.  Want the no hassle returns then go to the show floor and pay crazy prices.  But I bet you will go to the clearance isle as well.......we all do.   And you will buy things that have no return.

Yes I know the, well the buyer could not put their hands on it.......well then do not buy from me, buy from the store or someone who will take the return.  Pay the higher price and we are all happy.

If I fall flat on my face because I have no sales, then I have no one to blame but myself.

Rich 

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You are once again missing the point. At Macy's or any other retail store buyers can actually go in and look at the item physically before they purchase it.

On eBay all they have go off of is the sellers photos.

If the item arrives damaged or no longer in the condition that the photo said it was or is it completely separate item the seller should take the item back and provide a refund.

If you don't want to take returns then you shouldn't be selling on an online venue.

___________________________________________________

Especially not on a 3rd party venue.

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[Anonymous]

 Again, if you do not like the no return policy, then please do not do business with me.

Bingo!!!

However I do believe that ebay feels that many sellers will NOT report problem buyers

[godzilla_goose]

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@the*dog*ate*my*tablecloth wrote:

I talk a lot about a couple of bad transactions I had back then (out of a bunch). In one the seller didn't ship for weeks. Finally got tired of me emailing and shipped and the item was a piece of trash. I had no way to get my money back, tried talking nicely to the seller they said "too bad, so sad". I negged them, they negged me back.

The other really memorable seller sold me a set of vintage china pitchers from England. They showed up at my house with Home Goods stickers on the bottom. Were obviously NOT vintage as promised. I asked to ship back and the seller accused ME of switching the item. I said I was going to leave them a neg and they threatened me right back. We were at a stalemate. I still have the stupid things and it still annoys the heck out of me every time I see them.

The platform got even worse once Ebay instituted mutual withdrawal. Even board members suggested sellers leave retaliatory negs. EVEN WHEN UNDESERVED so that the buyer would agree to remove the feedback.

Never again.

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@the*dog*ate*my*tablecloth

the*dog*ate*my*tablecloth,

I completely empathize with your negative experiences.

In 2000, I won an auction for a Seiko watch, sent my money order to the seller in New Jersey. I received a totally different Seiko watch to the one that was pictured in the auction.

I wrote to the seller that I received something totally different than what was pictured. I ended up sending the wrong item back at MY EXPENSE and was expecting to get my money back.

The seller sent my a GREEN USPS Postal Money Order which is NOT NEGOTIABLE in Canada.

I wrote to the seller and explained this to them that they had to send me a PINK USPS Money Order that is negotiable in Canada.

I returned to GREEN Postal Money Order back to the seller and waited to the PINK USPS Money Order.

Nothing.

I wrote to the seller again.

Still nothing.

Now 90 days and still nothing. Too late to leave any feedback.

What recourse did I have?

I ended up filing a complaint to the Internet Fraud Complaint Center. In March 2001, I received a letter from State of New Jersey, Department of Law and Public Safety, Division of Consumer Affairs advising to where I need to file my fraud complaint.

In April, 2001, I received another letter from State of New Jersey and wanting copies of all related documents including my phone number within 7 days. I sent via XpressPost my documents from Canada to New Jersey and waited.

In June, 2001, I receive another letter from State of New Jersey questioning me of not confirming receipt of the replacement money order.

Well, I never received the replacement money order so I didn’t write to the State of New Jersey confirming of such.

I received another letter from the State of New Jersey on June 22, 2001 asking me to contact the seller to put a trace on the money order.

Well, the seller, as far as I know, NEVER issued a replacement money order so there was NOTHING TO trace.

Well, I had enough and knew to cut my losses with NOTHING to show for it. I just ended up being jerked around by State of New Jersey bureaucrats and I said BLEEP this BLEEPING BLEEP.

I was out the purchase price of the item, out the shipping costs to send the item to me, out the return shipping costs to send the wrong goods back to the seller, out postage costs to send the wrong Money order back to the seller, out the XpressPost costs (not cheap) to send documents to New Jersey.

Enough is enough.

[caninekopz]

I don't dissagree with anything you are saying, however if people want to shop that way then shy not let them.  If you are dishonest and ebay gets enough negative about you then it should be ebays job to get rid of that seller. Period.

That is why I say put it out there in bold letters.

You see if you are uncomfortable and the buyer has bad marks then don't buy......that seller will loose out.  

I will let my reputation stand behind what I sell.

You see people want everything.....they want the low price, the want to decide if they want it or not after using it, they want the seller to pay all ways, while they just do what they want......happening more and more. 

I am not saying that there should be no checks and balances, I am more about the seller that states exactly what something is (broken, locked parts only Iphones)  then the buyer gets the items and says , "does not work.  Listed in 7 places in a listing....broken, locked, parts only.....sold AS-IS.  Buyer gets to keep phones and ebay gives 400 dollars back to the buyer?????  

That is why I say Ebay should stay out or come up with a crack team of arbitrators, but easiet way is to just say sold as is.  

You see there is a market, if I choose to sell in it.  You can sell in the top tier market and I will not tell you how to run your business.  Heck I do sell some things in another store with returns.  But the other store I sell a lot of items that can be switched out or exchanged for a bad piece.  

And I know not all sellers are honest, but if I make a mistake I will make good, but dont lie to me.  I touch everything that goes out.  Dont buy a 500 set of knives and then when it gets there you say one is missing.....Yep I checked it before it went out.  I have all of my offices on camera.  I double checked and yep all knives there.  Ebay says so sorry take it back.  Now I a set of knives with 2 that were returned used and missing one knife.

Tighten it up a bit and then we can talk about the little stuff.

[caninekopz]

I agree.  Then it would be my decision to adjust how I choose to sell my product.  I may have a huge following of people that choose to buy from me becuase they have used me or trust me.  I can continue to offer lower prices because I do not deal with returns.......

And Like I said, I do returns but on my conditions.  Look at my feedback and people are happy.

If you looked at my listings and saw all of my listings were NO RETURN and then looked at my feedback, would you buy from me if my price was lower.  

You see a educated buyer is important.  It all comes down to .....I did not look at what you were selling so now pay all the cost because I don't want it.

If not then buy from the person who offers returns.

What I don't understand is we are taking away choices.  If my buyers are happy and spread my business then Ebay benefits.    If they are not happy and ebay sees a pattern....then drop me out.

I have all of my businesses tied to an EIN.  I am a professional company.  I have a hard address and store.  No reason for me to try to rip people off.  

[myescape]

If you accept credit cards in your store then you are bound by their policies correct?And many of the companies offer buyer protection to their users.How do you handle credit card fraud-if buyer wants to scam you and has paid w cc they have a way to