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Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

Ok dragging my feet, and decided taxes would be more fun.  The following is information that you have requested @Anonymous  along with being requested for my town hall question.  I am running Windows 7 Ultimate x64 with Firefox and adblocker for these results.  These results in the examples are purely based on the search engine's decisions and are not due to keyword spamming.  There are other examples I can come up with.  I have been taking a break from eBay though so I will have to bring them up as I remember them

 

Example #1:  256GB mSATA (Price lowest first and BIN only.  Solid State Drives category auto selected by the search engine.)

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=256gb+msata&_sacat=0&_sop=15&rt=nc&LH_BIN=1

 

  • The cheapest drives are M.2 drives which is a totally different interface than mSATA.  The best guess is item #'s like 333512364415 and 193352373483 show up in the results because the title has 256GB, the letter "M", and "SATA" in it.  The keyword "mSATA" specified in the search does not show up in the listings or item specifics.  There are more examples like those listings that are also incorrect.
  • An egregious example of a false result is 114119461911.  Everything in the listing is correct yet it shows up as a result.  Best guess is the search engine is triggered on 256GB and the letter "M"
  • Filtering by Interface -> mSATA doesn't do anything to help with inaccurate results.

Personally as a buyer I have needed to buy 256GB mSATA drives.  I won't buy them on eBay anymore because I am not confident I can get the best deal.  Also I don't wish to dig through a bunch of unrelated results due to how the search engine functions.

 

Example #2: Optiplex 320 (Price lowest first and BIN only.  PC Desktops & All-In-Ones category auto selected by the search engine.)

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=optiplex+320&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=15&_osacat=0&_odkw=256gb+msata&LH_BIN=1&rt=nc

 

Dell = Brand 

Optiplex = Product Line

320 = Model

 

Most of these results are not Optiplex  320 (model) desktops.  There are Optiplex 760, 780, 980, 990, 9010 and many other models in the results.  The search engine is getting the "Optiplex" keyword right 100% of the time from what I can tell.  However the search engine has decided anything goes when it comes to the "320" part.  There are ways to filter around this as a savvy buyer such as adding -320GB to the search.  That runs the risk of eliminating good deals though as there could be an Optiplex 320 with a 320GB hard drive in it.  Also adding -320GB only eliminates a chunk of the inaccurate results.  There are still other results that show up due to the ways sellers type in keywords for their titles.  Even if a person wanted to use the "Model" filter in the item specifics they can't since it isn't an option for this model.

 

Example #3: i5-3570 (Price lowest first and BIN only.  CPUs/Processors category auto selected by the search engine.)

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=i5-3570&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=15&_osacat=0&_odkw=i5-3450&LH_BIN=1

 

Unrelated results show up due to how loosely the search engine uses keywords.  Also includes models i5-3570S, i5-3570T, and i5-3570K.  These different processors have different specs hence the different letters on the end.  Also worth noting that in "Best Match" sort some inaccurate results show up higher up the list.  This is how you have to search if you actually want the right model of processor:

 

i5-3570 -3570s -3570t -3570k

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=i5-3570+-3570s+-3570t+-3570k&_sacat=164&LH_TitleDesc=0&LH_PrefLoc=1&_sop=15&_osacat=164&_odkw=i3-2120+-2120s+-2120t&LH_BIN=1

 

Example #4: Lenovo T440 (Price lowest first and BIN only.  PC Laptops & Netbooks category auto selected by the search engine.)

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Lenovo+T440&_sacat=0&_sop=15&rt=nc&LH_BIN=1

 

This is a redundant example to go with #3 above.  The T440S and T440P models show up in search due to how loosely the search engine uses keywords.  Same deal as with #3.  Different specs/configs/etc.

 

Example #5: Gigabyte 1150 Motherboard (Price lowest first and BIN only.  Motherboards category auto selected by the search engine.)

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Gigabyte+1150+Motherboard&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=15&rt=nc&LH_BIN=1

 

"Gigabyte" keyword is referring to the brand.  "1150" is referring to the socket 1150 (For Intel processors) or more formally known as LGA 1150/Socket H3

 

  • 273830732384 is a HP motherboard.  It is socket 1150 as specified in the search.  It is a motherboard.  It is not a Gigabyte brand motherboard.  Seller has the listing setup correctly.
  • 183729007347 is an interesting anomaly.  "1150" is in the title although it might be an error since I don't believe there is an "AMD XP 1150" model CPU. It is a motherboard.  It is not a Gigabyte brand motherboard.
  • 274167683869 is a Lenovo motherboard that supports an AMD processor.  It is not compatible with socket 1150 Intel processors.  It is a motherboard. It is not a Gigabyte brand motherboard.  I searched for 1150 not SDH1150IAA3DE 
  • There are other examples of boards that don't match the search criteria by brand.

"Gigabyte" is a brand name.  Many of these results are not "Gigabyte" brand motherboards.  There are several results in this search that are beyond ridiculous.  From what I can tell the search engine is deciding that anything with the letters "GB' in the listing is the same thing as the keyword "Gigabyte".  Although GB is the abbreviation for gigabyte, Gigabyte is also a brand name.  Using the item specifics Socket Type -> LGA 1150/Socket H3 combined with Brand -> Gigabyte fixes the results.  A simpler option is to put "Gigabyte" in quotes for the search keywords.  I am not convinced the average buyer is doing this though.  Also I feel I shouldn't have to apply those filters if I am using the right keywords.

 

Interestingly enough searching for "4 gigabyte" gives 900K results.  Another example of how anything goes when it comes to the search engine.  Not sure why a buyer would type in gigabyte if they wanted "GB" results.

 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=4+gigabyte&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=15&_osacat=0&_odkw=256gb+msata&LH_BIN=1&rt=nc

 

Message 1 of 34
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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

This took 2 hours to research and write up instead of the hour I was hoping it would take. Probably not the best use of my Friday night. Hopefully something positive comes from it.
Message 2 of 34
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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

The searches I conduct for items favors a single word. Details do not matter. I am getting whatever AI searches for in its limited capacity.

Message 3 of 34
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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

An excellent and well documented summary of some of the flaws and limitations of eBay's search in general, and the keyword substitution portion of the search expansion feature in particular.

 

Keyword substitution seems to be based on matching search terms to purchases that are made, so if users are searching for one thing and wind up purchasing something else, spurious correlations can sometimes wind up being made by the software. 

 

Keyword substitution is an automatic feature of search expansion, like implicit category navigation that changes the category based on the keywords used.

 

https://www.ebay.ie/pages/help/search/expanding.html

 

Both of those features can be disabled by using Advanced Search Operators -- parentheses and commas (this,that) to search for this or that; quotes around individual words or phrases to search for the literal keyword only; minus signs to exclude certain terms like -octopus.

 

https://www.ebay.ie/pages/help/search/search-commands.html

 

For the benefit of anyone else who is running into similar problems with their searches, I would suggest using workarounds to deal with the limitations of those search features.

 

So for example #1, I would suggest the following search to bypass the spurious substitutions:

 

256gb "msata"

This ensures that all of the results actually contain the literal "msata" term.

 

For example #2, I would suggest the following search:

 

"optiplex 320"

That will match titles that have the word optiplex immediately followed by the number 320, and not include those titles where there is an intervening word between those terms.

 

Examples #3 and #4 are due to the way that the search treats a number keyword as a match to the same number with any alpha character appended, unless those combinations are explicitly excluded, as the original poster has done.

 

For example #5, the following search:

 

"Gigabyte" 1150 Motherboard

should eliminate the spurious GB substitution, as the OP has suggested. In cases where a model number contains 1150, a more specific exclusion may need to be used to eliminate those results, such as -sdh1150. Or filters can be used to specify cpu package type.

 

Clearly eBay's search, and the search expansion feature in particular, is not perfect.

 

eBay is interested in maximizing the amount of sales, so eBay has an incentive to help users find what they are looking for with a minimum of difficulty. The user at the margin is probably less interested in finding an exhaustive list of every possible search result and more interested in finding the "best" quick match using imperfectly chosen intuitive search terms, without having to learn search syntax rules.

 

It makes a certain amount of sense that eBay would prioritize those marginal intuitive users -- after all, that is where the money is. Power users that want complete, logical results are left to discover search syntax rules and workarounds to bypass the intuitive "close enough" search features.

 

eBay could do a better job of making those trade-offs explicit. Perhaps an actual switch to disable the search expansion features would be a good idea, in addition to updating the help pages so that the search rules are actually made clear.

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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

The problem is the average user isn't going to use those search commands. I have found most users don't even know about the minus command. Spamming unrelated items isn't going to help sales. I personally have had someone ask to cancel an order more than once due to this spam. A quote from one of those instances:

"Hello, sorry, I thought this was the S model, as that was my ebay search. If you could please cancel my order 😞 "

Either they need to set a threshold for the "anything goes" mode or just get rid of it and go back to how it was. I would really like to see some more intelligence incorporated to when the anything goes mode is applicable. It was nice when below the accurate results it used to say something like "More items similar to what you are looking for". There was an obvious delineation between everything and sometimes there were actually relevant items there. Model numbers and item specifics should not be picked apart as seen fit.

I would love it if they would give us a setting for keywords only with no additional "intelligence". While we are asking for things I wouldn't mind being able to have the site remember other settings like "US Only". Transparency is not on one of eBay's strong points so odds are we will never get enough info to understand what the search engine is up to. It would be nice if a person didn't have to fight the search engine to get what they want though...
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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

@gwzcomps 

 

The problem is the average user isn't going to use those search commands.

 

You are right, of course -- but eBay would likely argue that the average user does not need to use those search commands to find decent search results.

 

"Hello, sorry, I thought this was the S model, as that was my ebay search. If you could please cancel my order"

 

Yes, that is certainly a problem. But almost any search algorithm is bound to have some of those. The question is whether the "smart" search helps more than it hurts. eBay obviously thinks it leads to more sales than not, as all that programming has costs in programmers' time and computational overhead. Perhaps eBay is wrong about that, but they certainly have incentives to get it right -- eBay will lose a lot of money if they are wrong -- and I do not have any real data beyond anecdotes.

 

It's easy to point out where keyword substitution falls down -- very easy -- but then again, nobody complains when a search returns the right result even though the searcher spelled a term wrong or used the "wrong" keyword. Most users probably never even notice.

 

I would really like to see some more intelligence incorporated to when the anything goes mode is applicable.

 

More intelligence means more exceptions, and more ways that the search can go off the rails. It means that users that do not want the default behavior have to learn more details of how that default behavior works to effectively get around it. Be careful what you wish for.

 

I would prefer a much dumber, more logical search with fewer smart features and more consistent results, but I am clearly in the tiny minority. It is not obvious that eBay should attempt to cater to my taste, in any event; I will likely be able to find what I am looking for no matter what eBay does, so eBay should probably continue to ignore me.

 

I would love it if they would give us a setting for keywords only with no additional "intelligence".

 

The closest approximation to that now is to always add a nonsense exclusion term to your search -- that will eliminate keyword substitution and implicit category navigation. Instead of searching for widget, search for widget -octopus. But you and I will still have problems searching for part numbers that end in different letters without using explicit exclusions.

 

While we are asking for things I wouldn't mind being able to have the site remember other settings like "US Only".

 

Actually the eBay app, of all things, now has such a setting -- it is possible to set up a US-only search and then lock that setting so that future searches are also US-only.

 

The closest I can get to US-only default using a desktop browser is to bookmark a sample US-only search, and then use that bookmarked search as the basis for future searches.

 

Of course the US-only item location would be much more useful if eBay would only crack down on foreign sellers listing false locations for their items (and also US-registered sellers that drop-ship from overseas without indicating such in their listings).

 

Transparency is not on one of eBay's strong points so odds are we will never get enough info to understand what the search engine is up to. It would be nice if a person didn't have to fight the search engine to get what they want though...

 

Agreed. I would trade Cassini and all of my bookmarked searches for a halfway decent wildcard search, but eBay has decided that keyword-based searching is the way to go. Apparently that generates much more usable marketing data for someone.

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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

I would prefer a much dumber, more logical search with fewer smart features and more consistent results, but I am clearly in the tiny minority. It is not obvious that eBay should attempt to cater to my taste, in any event; I will likely be able to find what I am looking for no matter what eBay does, so eBay should probably continue to ignore me.

 

I agree with both your statements..........

Message 7 of 34
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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

Bottom line is ebay manipulates the search, which is generally unfair to sellers and completely frustrating to buyers.

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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

In the end no one wins it seems. Well maybe eBay. Who knows. I'm not convinced running the search algorithms this way is ideal. Most of my stuff is M/N or P/N related though.
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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

because ebay threw away a functional search engine several years ago for this one that has never been adequate. It had lots of good features.

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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

Anonymous
Not applicable

@gwzcomps wrote:
This took 2 hours to research and write up instead of the hour I was hoping it would take. Probably not the best use of my Friday night. Hopefully something positive comes from it.

Hi @gwzcomps, thank you so much for putting the time into researching this and compiling information for us. I will definitely get this over to our tech teams for review and see what might be going on!

Message 11 of 34
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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

I have a Marx toy donkey cart for sale - If I search Marx donkey cart it shows no items exist. If I search Marx donkey they all come up???
Key words in search mean absolutely nothing. I spend hours running search so I will know what is best. I just put in MARX DONKEY as the whole title.
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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

@8287davidm 

 

A general search for marx donkey cart retuns zero exact matches in all categories.

 

Some of the results shown in "matching fewer words" contain all three terms.

 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=marx+donkey+cart&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=10&_osa...

 

A general search for marx donkey cart -octopus returns 10 matches.

 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=marx+donkey+cart+-octopus&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_so...

 

It is not a category issue as these are general "all category" search results. This appears to be a keyword issue.

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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)

I tried every combo and Cart killed all. Yes, I noticed fewer words. Move a few words around and 16 results or 13 or 5 or zero results will show - Forget Completed. I find two or three words only seems best for getting returns. Used to be detailed searches were best now it is Marx Donkey!!!
Lalique fish!!!
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Re: Examples of why search engine is broken. (Sorry for the long post.)


@8287davidm wrote:
I have a Marx toy donkey cart for sale - If I search Marx donkey cart it shows no items exist. If I search Marx donkey they all come up???
Key words in search mean absolutely nothing. I spend hours running search so I will know what is best. I just put in MARX DONKEY as the whole title.

@8287davidm  This is a case where the search engine is working as intended if you are referring to item # 114126248432.  You don't have the word "cart" anywhere in the searchable fields in the listing.  Interestingly enough it doesn't come up if a title and description search for Marx Donkey Cart is done.  I am not sure why that is though.

 

(Title an description search)

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=marx+donkey+cart&_sacat=0&LH_Title...

 

It does show up if you search Marx Toy Donkey since you have those keywords in the title.

 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=marx+donkey+toy&_sacat=0&LH_TitleD...

 

This listing including a few others you need to put more keywords in the title.  Also all CAPs titles are no longer recommended by eBay.  Something to do with google searchability if I remember right.  A better title would be something like:

 

Vintage Marx Tin Litho Donkey and Cart Incomplete May Need Repairs

 

That would give you more keyword hits.   Also it would help the buyer know what they are getting since most people don't read descriptions.  Not saying you have to do your title that way, but I personally think it would make for a faster and smoother sale.

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