Finally got scammed by a buyer....

[jklfindings]

After 13 years, I've finally become the victim of the empty box return scam.  I even got the false SNAD return as the cherry on top.  Mind you, I'm just venting, I know the game and how this pays out in the end.

Buyer purchased a piece from me, and 5 days after receiving it, opened a return SNAD "does not match description".  His reason was "it was smaller than i thought", even though specific measurements, and pictures next to a quarter for general size were taken.  EBay of course approved the return, and on my dime provided a label....  10 business days go past and nothing....  5 more business days are given to the buyer by eBay, and miraculously the item ships the last day it could.  I receive.... a large Amazon box????  The item was a cross, so the box is kinda overkill.  Open it up to a few bubble padding thingys, and another... empty... box.

I call eBay, and get the run around of "don't do anything, and seller protection will keep you safe" uh-huh, we all know what's gonna happen right?  Last night was my last chance to refund, and I just waited as instructed.  When I woke this morning, a case had been opened, and it took all of 17 minutes for eBay to find in favor of the buyer.  Like I said, I'm not new to the game, just needed to share my experience as a form of therapy lol.  Cost of doing business and all right?

[farmalljr]

Nah, comparing selling on this platform to B&M is apples and cinder blocks. At least a B&M can set policies. At least a B&M has the opportunity to say NO to a buyer. This is OUR inventory and OUR money that someone else, just gives away at will. THEY are creating the situation to allow buyers to steal, not sellers. We can do nothing about it, other than leave. How many times do you think a B&M store would "leave" or allow themselves to be strapped with such money losing rules?

Yeah, I get "theft" IS a part of doing business, but so is having some means to control theft. We have none. 

[dansjewelersca.h]

@jklfindings,

I also sell fine jewelry and depending on how things end up this year, as of now, sales are drastically down, I may consider leaving eBay for good at the end of the year. 

Let me know if you need help in blasting their decision on social media, if we make your story viral, we can make a difference.  This is unacceptable on behalf of eBay, and they should be backing up us sellers who have been providing great service to our customers.  

Thank you for sharing your experience.  It's a horror story that all of us fear, the thought of being scammed. 

[stuff4divas]

How I handle Scum

The first thing to do is to report the buyer>

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/resolving-buyer-issues/report-issue-buyer?id=4084&st=12&pos=1&quer...

Then, read this link re Seller Protection>

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-policies/seller-protection?id=4345&st=12&pos=2&query=Sell...

 Then, see if this will help:

An item that is returned after it was used or damaged by the buyer

Sellers who offer free returns and who are not Below Standard are eligible for this protection

• You can deduct up to 50% from the refund to recover the lost value of the item
• We will take care of any issues directly with the buyer for you, including removing any negative and neutral feedback, defects, and open cases in service metrics

How to issue a partial refund when the item is returned in a different condition

To issue a partial refund:

• Go to your Returns dashboard.
• Select View return details beside the item.
• Decide What to Refund.
• Select the percent you want to deduct from the refund amount.
• Add a message to the buyer explaining why the refund wasn't full.
• Select Send.

In addition, make a police report, internet fraud report, USPS fraud report to send with your appeal.

Also note the weight and size of original package vs returned package, ie photos, label info

Then

Contact eBay via social media with a private message:

https://Facebook.com/ebay

AND-OR

https://Twitter.com/askebay

very good customer service on these social media sites

[oldcoin007]

How did they get them out the door without paying? 

[downunder-61]

---

@1786davycrockett wrote:

"It is the cost of doing business, both online and retail B&M. . .."

Not true.  No B&M store would provide a full refund for a buyer who was attempting to defraud the store by returning an empty box.  

At the very least, store security would escort the buyer off the premises.

C'mon, eBay -- protect your sellers against these "empty box" thieves!

Enough is enough!!!

---

Seriously ?? I think most people would understand I was referring to shop lifting at B&M stores

[chapeau-noir]

---

@oldcoin007 wrote:

How did they get them out the door without paying? 

---

I'm not Davycrockett but shoplifters are cunning - they're masters at sleight of hand and messing with coats, bags, etc., to suddenly disappear things.  Sometimes they work with partners. 

The term 'shoplifting' is an old one, and was used in the 18th century - 'shrinkage' is nothing new.  There are stories of people being apprehended stealing things that I can't even imagine anyone being able to sneak out of a shop.  Those are the ones who didn't get away, too.

GENERAL: As for comparing shoplifting and empty box policies on here and B&Ms, we have to remember that we're on someone else's real estate and are stuck with their policies.  Most B&Ms, can control their own real estate (unless they're beholden to some tight-fisted corporate admin to set policy) and can set their own rules. 

[1786davycrockett]

“How did they get them out the door without paying?”

I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying.  l’m talking about a hypothetical situation in which a buyer makes a purchase of a boxed item from a B&M store — takes the boxed  item to another location to remove the interior contents — then returns to the B&M store in order to attempt to make a return on an empty box.

”SECURITY — RETURNS COUNTER PLEASE!!!”

[stuff4divas]

United States Postal Inspection Service

Mail Fraud Complaint>

https://ehome.uspis.gov/fcsexternal/default.aspx

[1786davycrockett]

“I think most people would understand I was referring to shop lifting at B&M stores.”

But the OP wasn’t talking about shop lifting — the OP was talking about buyers returning empty boxes to the sellers, instead of the originally purchased item.

And don’t think for a moment that buyers haven’t tried to do that at B&M stores —  a couple of real dim bulbs tried it on me not just at Barnes & Noble, but most recently at Target, plus about 30 years ago when I worked at a comic book & sports card store.  I even watched one idiot removing the item he had just purchased inside his car, and then bringing the empty box back inside my store to try to do a return.

Stupidity rages just as high as larceny.

[north40sales]

the USPS investigators will not be interested in following up on a complaint unless its $20k+ in value or involves an address that they are already investigating.  

[jklfindings]

So yeah...  As an update.  I reached out through ebay for business on Facebook as you suggested.  Gave all the details they asked for, and they sent me a declaration to sign and send back in.  Pretty much said that I attest under penalty of perjury that the return was empty when it came back.  Sent that in, and a day later got the "Your appeal has been accepted" emails........  I won.  Huh.  Within a few hours, the money was in my eBay payouts.

Whether eBay paid out the claim,  or it came from the buyer, I don't know. 

So, thank you for your advice!  And for all the sellers out there who go through this mess, do the leg work, it might turn out okay after all.

[dbfolks166mt]

WOW!!!!!  So glad this worked out for you for way to many it doesn't. Maybe eBay is finally starting to provide some protection to their sellers. 

[craft-stash]

This is just a SAD JOKE that a Seller has to go to ANOTHER Site to get a problem solved that clearly could have been just fixed the first time the OP contacted ebay support!

RIDICULOUS 🎯

[katzrul15]

@jklfindings 

Congrats!!!  So glad to hear it all worked out for you!  Excellent news!!!

[gettincreaky]

Unfortunately Katzrul15, Ebay's appeal system is a black box that rarely if ever rules in the sellers favor. I've had buyers play the return game after sending threatening emails, trying to blackmail me to get free shipping while saying they will pump up my other auctions to "help" me to get them free shipping, then sending back half of what I shipped them, often in three separate packages just so I pay extra shipping.

In that particular case, I called Ebay, got the Philippines call center (never good), was hung up on once, called back and spent an hour being transferred around only to get "Casey" who was supposed to send an email to make sure client would return items in one box media mail. Lo and behold, nothing positive happened. Trying to speak to the client was not an option as they were threatening, belligerent and laughing at the prospect of me paying more for shipping.

So I got three packages sent Priority generously provided by Ebay that I didn't authorize, because their return system mostly automatically forces sellers to refund the buyer and first accept a return on our dime or dollars more likely. Needless to say, I received less than half of the items sold back, some damaged. My only option was to call for a fourth time and ask Ebay to review the return as it was partial. The eBay "system" as I don't believe anyone actually reviews these seller requests in less than 24 hours refunded the buyer for all three auction items and I also got stuck with $53 in extra shipping. So all totaled  I am out my original items, the original shipping of $15 and $53 not to mention my items and four hours of headaches with eBay and more with the not-well buyer.

I tried one last time to appeal (which I knew was a waste of time) after the "system" approved all refunds and I had to pay the Priority shipping on each item back for media mail items that were originally shipped in one box. To my shock and surprise, I got a US representative "Vee" from Georgia who was so on the ball and was able to reverse the decision, although not the shipping fees (I hate that USPS made extra money from this when they have been abysmal at losing items, breaking items and not tracking items lately). She noted that she completed the "Affidavit" for me which I had never run into over 15 years as an Ebay seller. She then noted that she would be able to support a "subsidy" for the shipping fees as well of only up to $6 for each return. While that would hardly dent the $53 in extra shipping for the return, it helped some.

At the end of the day, what should have been a simple transaction became a nightmare where I lost my inventory and about $30. It wasn't the end of the world but did waste about  four hours of my time with ebay and umpteen hours with a belligerent client who likely is still out there harassing other sellers and that is the rub as any blocked or reported buyer could and does simply open a new account and repeat their behavior. For us Sellers, we either learn to write off these losses and if they start stacking up, leave altogether and have limited help from eBay as this is the first time in a dozen times that I was helped after multiple calls.

So to you sellers out their dealing with a system that supports hostile buyers, simple cut and move on and you'll sleep better at night. Don't forget to block and report the buyer though, since at least their name and addresses will be in the eBay system. As for wasting time dealing with the Philippines and ineffective US reps, just look out for Vee in Georgia. You might get lucky like I did... this time.