Ivory and ethical issues

[d-baron]

I have to admit, I have made a point in the past of never buying anything made of ivory. Basically because, I not only wanted to make sure that I wasn't inadvertently supporting modern day poachers but also because of the fact that an animal had to have died needlessly at some point in time to provide any kind of ivory put into circulation. Not sure I will ever be able to overlook that principle, even if it involves collecting chess sets. Hope that doesn't upset anyone. I think the ivory sets are often beautiful, but I suspect I would not be able to get that out of my mind while handling/playing with them. Duncan

[chessspy]

sign your name silly boy. Alan D.

[godopenedherwomb]

Hello Alan. Thank you for your reply. Yes, I do blame myself. And I must admit that I was simply following suit with the ivory bone listing. I will re-list it. I kind of figured that anyone who searches like most of us do see it all of the time. It is really amazing how many ivorybone or even just ivory Barleycorn sets are listed. I wonder how many buyers actually think that they are getting an ivory set? Anyway, let me ask you guys (the answer is probably in this thread already), but with me living in the U.S. may I list my ivory sets to sell only in the U.S? I often see pre-ban sets sold worldwide. What are the rules? May I sell to overseas buyers if they have a CITEs license? Thank you....Brad

[godopenedherwomb]

Hello numisma. A few years back we had a pond dug on our property and the fellow who was running the bulldozer told me that some time ago he had dug up a Mastodon or Mammoth. Well, the farmer told him. "Cover that thing back up and put the pond over there" pointing to the side. Now, I know that the fossil, graveyard and archaeological rules could be a real pain in the you-know-what but I sure would have had him doze up those tusks!! 😉 Brad

[cpe1991]

Brad I have posted the eBay rules in the USA and in the UK (posting 31 in this thread). Briefly, the eBay rules state that you can list only for sale in the USA. If you sell abroad by any other route, it is you who have to obtain a CITES licence, not the buyer. If you sell in the UK via a UK auction house, they will have to obtain a CITES licence,and they allow up to 2 years for this. The US authorities are very slow. The UK ones process CITES applications very efficiently if the ivory goods are accompanied by a signed declaration from a recognised aniques dealer who is a member of their professional body (BADA or LAPADA). Einstein once said that you have to know the rules of the game better than anyone else, and that applies to eBay as well as physics! Alan

[lichess]

As part of the Chess Collectors International meeting in Florida (April 29 to May, 2008,)CCI will publish a Convention Program BOOK that will be around 200 pages. Much larger than it's traditional 30-35 pages. It will feature a 60 page article by Isaack Linder entitled "Morphy and the Russian Chess Masters", another 60 pages on ivory identification, care and restoration; an article on English Porcelain and Pottery Chess Sets, another on Old English Playing sets; photos of outstanding chess sets from The Dean Colection which will be on display at the Convention, etc. This book should be a Keeper. Members of CCI who attend will get the book as part of the registration fee. Additional copies will be distributed to Museums around the world that have chess set or chess book collections. Only a limited amount of these Collectors BOOKS will be printed. A few will be available for sale at about $55 (plus shipping). If anyone wants me to reserve a copy for them, please email me no later than March 15, 2008. Floyd Sarisohn Lichess@aol.com

[dancing_with_volves]

I found an interesting piece of information from Wikipedia: The harvest of elephants, both legal and illegal, has had some unexpected consequences on elephant anatomy as well. African ivory hunters, by killing only tusked elephants, have given a much larger chance of mating to elephants with small tusks or no tusks at all. The propagation of the absent-tusk gene has resulted in the birth of large numbers of tuskless elephants, now approaching 30% in some populations (compare with a rate of about 1% in 1930). Tusklessness, once a very rare genetic abnormality, has become a widespread hereditary trait.

[knight_knight_zzz]

Hi, Kristjan. Regarding the increasing prevalence of tuskless elephants, which you just mentioned ... very very interesting! However, I will not make any comments (at least yet) on whether such inadvertent (unintentional / unplanned) results are "good" or "bad". But it would make for some interesting discussion, eh? John, Vt. PS: Has everyone gone to sleep?

[cpe1991]

John You should be asleep! There is currently hehement debates about a cull in South Africa, and I bet that their government will go for the well-hung tuskers. Alan http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=14&art_id=nw20080222164242414C760486

[knight_knight_zzz]

Hi, Alan. Thanks for the link with respect to elephant ivory; interesting! But you are right: I really should be asleep! (I have been up for about 5 hours now - on this weekend night - and rather than writing (ad nauseam, as usual and with a wink,) on this interesting and (agreed) important issue, I have been busy writing an article for the next CCI newsletter. But honestly, speaking of culling, I might need to employ some of those same South African factions to either cut off or place a halt to some of my excess verbiage in the article I am writing! John. PS: If I am allowed, I will be mentioning you (in a good way!) in the article! PPS: Your wish is my command. Back to bed; it's after 5 a.m.! Knight_Knight_zzz!

[chessspy]

Hi, All, In 2002 the Kreuger Nat. Park sold 6 tonnes of culled ivory. Because of pressure from environmental groups like WAFFI, they could only be sold to a cartel of Japanese businessmen, who were flown over for the sale in Geneva. Of course they 'sorted out' the price they were prepared to pay on the flight, (£20 per kilo) the international price is £100-£200 per kilo. consequently the sale raised Only 1/5th of what it should and there is no money to police the reservation. The elephant is a food animal just like many others, and very destructive if it's numbers are left uncontrolled. The whole thing is problematic but these rabid tree huggers are actually adding to the problems not helping to find an answer.

[cpe1991]

John and Alan The South African Government has this evening announced a cull of elephants. They are also going to try and control the elephant population by contraceptives. Careful Brad, they might try the latter on ivory sellers, especially those with nine children. But, they might be a teeny weeny bit too big for you. Alan

[chessspy]

Hi, alan, I understand that the woman grips the elephant pills between her knees.

[knight_knight_zzz]

Alan, (either one, or both)... I have no idea what it would feel like with such a large bag over my head. Please fill me in. Errrr.... I mean... please tell me what it's like to have a plastic bag over your head. (Take your time.) Brad, don't fret. Alan does not realize that you have the really BIG guy on your side; (The heck with the ELEPHANT.) "Be fruitful and multiply." (And multiply). (And multiply). The reality is, Brad, ALL of US oldtimers are just jealous of you! Brad.............Brad........... you still up? I am not. I am tired. Good knight, all! John. zzz

[cpe1991]

If they are going to have a cull, then they should weed out the ones with weeny little tusks, thus mimicking natural selection and building up a stock of impressive tuskers.

[godopenedherwomb]

Hello all. Hmmm, I have to catch up a bit I see. Yes, Alan they are too late for me!! Ha ha!! As, for the culling, perhaps they could make more money if they had a lottery for or just sold hunting permits. That is how we try to keep the deer, moose and elk populations down over here. I mean how many hunters might like an elephant head on their wall? I hope all of this is not irrelephant! 🙂 Brad