Ivory and ethical issues

[d-baron]

I have to admit, I have made a point in the past of never buying anything made of ivory. Basically because, I not only wanted to make sure that I wasn't inadvertently supporting modern day poachers but also because of the fact that an animal had to have died needlessly at some point in time to provide any kind of ivory put into circulation. Not sure I will ever be able to overlook that principle, even if it involves collecting chess sets. Hope that doesn't upset anyone. I think the ivory sets are often beautiful, but I suspect I would not be able to get that out of my mind while handling/playing with them. Duncan

[chessspy]

Hi, Brad, As far as I have seen, all ivory is similar in that respect. I recently bought a large piece of Mammoth, (as trading unworked efalump ivory in britain has been illegal since 2006) I will photograph the grain, and also the grain of my remaining stock of elephant ivory and post pictures on picasa shortly. BTW I apologize for my rather abrupt posting (100) Alan D.

[gevork6]

.....yes, love to see the pics...thanks Alan!!!!! aa

[cpe1991]

It is the end of an era on eBay Trading in ivory goods From January 2009 our Animals and Wildlife Products Policy will completely prohibit trading in ivory goods. For more information about this policy change, please visit the eBay Ink blog. We will continue to enforce our existing policies until the new policy comes into place. Regards, The eBay Team

[dancing_with_volves]

Having nothing to do with ethics, of course.

[chesspurr]

Here any viewer can read with happiniess opinions on ethics and Ivory . Some new members of this group might even enjoy the verbal jousting . ]:)

[knight_knight_zzz]

Hi, All...! (First, to get the important stuff out of the way... Happy Stupid Bowl (Super Bowl) day! Of course, most of us will be seriously involved in a good game of chess, right?) ;-) In trying to be at least a little bit more helpful, here is a list of books I have in my collection: I am not sure if such a list is posted anywhere else on these ebay discussion threads, and frankly, I really do not want to spend oodles of minutes or hours looking it up.) “Book” Resources Regarding Ivory (including occasional references to chess pieces / sets / boards). 1.) Ivory At A Glance (What to look for in ivory and Related Materials); A Fields Guide For Antique and Art Collectors, Tomas V. Gallegos, Prepared for Members of Chess Collectors International, October, 2005, (38 pages). Pictures of chess pieces and chess sets scattered here and there… As I understand it, the above great booklet is available for CCI members on the CCI magazine website. Jim Joannou may be able to help you out! 2.) Ivories, Alfred Maskell, 1966, Publishers: Charles E. Tuttle Co. (Rutland Vermont!, Tokyo Japan), 1st Published in 1905 in Methuen’s fames series “The Connoisseurs Library”. (551 pages in all). ISBN 0-8048-0269-6. Chapter XIII: Chessmen and Draughtsmen, Page 396-409; plates 68,69. Also, ivory casket plate (not chess) “Moorish”, 10th,11th Century. 3.) Ivory, Geoffrey Wills, 1968, Barnes and Company, (chess related: pages 36,37) SBN 498–06866-8. 4.) Ivory and Its Uses, Benjamin Bivack, 1984, Charles E. Tuttle, Inc. Company, (Rutland, Vermont! And Tokyo, Japan), Chess pieces and sets, Pages 17,18, 21, 23, 38, 124-125, Illustration page 146. 5.) Ivories, A History and Guide, Charles Platten Woodhouse, 1976, Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, ISBN 0-442-29536-7. Chess sets: pages 62-64, 66, 83, 90, 92-93, 95, 109. Illustrations: page 10. 6.) Ivories of The West, Massmo Carra, 1966, Fratelli Fabri Editor. Milan. 1970, Hamlin Publishing Group. (“Bound in Scotland by Hunter and Foulis Ltd, Edinburgh), SBN, 600548024, Illustration # 64 page 140): “Renaissance Art, Ivory Chess Board”. Illustration #51 (page 114): “Romanesque art”(??) Chess pieces. 7.) Chinese Ivory Sculpture, Warren E. Cox, 1946, Bonanza Books, Crown Publishers, (Mere reference to chessmen): page 32. “Mystery ball” (puzzleball) Plate 44, 46. “Eight Immortals”: Plates 28, 29. Plate 4 “Hairpins”; Dieppe sand chess set pieces(?). Chapter VII “The Workings of Ivory pages 105-112. 8.) This book is not focused on ivory, but is a good resource regarding elephants, and has many pictures as well as pages of discussions. Elephants. A Cultural Natural History, Karl Groning (Ed.), Martin Saller (Text). Konemann Verlagsgesgellschaft mbltru. ISBN 3-8290-1752-9. (482 pages in all). Chess figures, 406,407. And finally (and I should have already known this, but just discovered it with a little web search), there are probably several websites on ivory on the Net. One of them, http://www.ivoryhound.com mentions that there are over 500 books on ivory. (Seems like my paltry little list is just that... a tiny list among many.) The website does list a number of those 500+ books. Have a good day, y'all. (I guess the elephants are not having a good day.) :-( John. VT.

[chesspurr]

Hi John Maybe I am confused, Rats, Vermin in Vermont, I was unsure what you were Rabbitting on about . Then descovery time ............ ]:) Apparently Rats did enjoy eating 19th century Ivory, but only the tips of the Tusks. Fussy little creatures. It might explain why Jaques made fewer Status Quo sets. ;) Jim you might want to note this possibility ]:)

[knight_knight_zzz]

Well, Guy. Yes, there is (are?) Vermin in Vermint. And believe it or not, there are roaches (and not the camp fire type!) in Vermont too. (Honest!) I know! You do recall what I do for a living, right? But to get back to the important issue of rats and ivory. It is 100 percent true, according to the recently realized efforts of some modern day researchers, that rats, which had some pretty discriminating taste, tended to be a problem with respect to damage of ivory tusks. Regarding Jaques Staunton statu quo traveling chess sets, it makes me wonder if the larger rodents (rats) preferred the larger version. Did they make homes (when the boxboards were closed?) Did they actually prefer ivory to bone - when nibbling naughty knights near night time? (And if so, did they have preferences for African ivory or Indian ivory? I ask this because of the widely known differentiating characteristics between the two type of ivory.) Did mice prefer the smaller versions? Did their incisors sustain damage when/if they munched on the metal flange below each chess piece? And most importantly, will Jim be addressing all of this in his talk in Cambridge?

[chesspurr]

Hi John Apparently Mr Jaques of Hatton Gardens noted that only African Ivory was eaten. The Indian material was left alone ??!! Something to do with Gelatine in the tips of the Tusks ! Clever little buggers maybe we now know why Dumbo was so scared of Mice !! ]:)

[d-baron]

Well, as some of you may know- or not know- I was in the pest control business for 16 years, and owned my own pest control company for 11 of those years. Needless to say, I've had a lot of experience with rats, much more than I ever want to remember. They can be an interesting subject, however. Contrary to their popular image, rats can be quite picky about what they eat, but once they find food, water and shelter, they can be set for life. They may never travel any further than three square feet the entire remainder of their life if they find everything they need for sustenance within that area (and since their water requirements are relatively low, they can often obtain all the water they need from the food they eat, which means even less travel is necessary). Mice, on the other hand, will eat anything and everything. Two things come to mind as being possibilities when you discuss the discovery of rats nibbling on ivory. First, as a food source of course. Second, the reason why rats gnaw as much as they do is because their teeth never stop growing- and they grow extremely fast- so they have to continually gnaw to keep their teeth worn down. Otherwise, their teeth would literally grow so long the rats would no longer be able to close their mouths or chew their food and they would starve to death. Lest you doubt, just ask any pest control technician- all of the above is true. In view of the above information, I could see where a rat could enter a box containing a chess set, and chow down for a while. Eat one piece at a time until the whole set is gone, and then go on to the next. They could do a lot of damage in a pretty small amount of time that way. As far as eating the tips right off of ivory tusks and/or the marks of their teeth in the ivory, that could either be due to their using it as a food source, or due to their using it to gnaw down their teeth. Either way, again, they could do a lot of damage in a fairly small amount of time. Don't know how much this information helps, but I think it certainly shows how it would be possible for rats to do a lot of damage to any stored ivory in a very short period of time.

[chesspurr]

This whole business gets more and more interesting . Jaques apparently poured scorn on the accepted idea that all gnawed Ivory was done by Alligators. He questioned the idea bacause he could not figure out how the Reptiles could have ended up in the Hatton Gardens Ivory depot . ;) No sightings by any Seamen were reported concerning these sharp toothed creatures travelling up and down the Thames, than entering the sewers, so as to eventually turn up in warehouses . Perhaps had they done so the Rat problem might have been solved . ]:)

[knight_knight_zzz]

Rats, Duncan! And (speaking of inserted statu quo chess pieces) I thought I had you pegged 😉 as a paper pusher at a University. Duncan, Duncan, Duncan. You are one surprise! Good info there too! I do think I mentioned somewhere - but can't remember where - that one of my two upright grand pianos (yes, two... my wife will kill me and feed me to the Vermont rats - if I bring home any more pianos!) has mice "chips" on the upper keys! (On a side note 😉 I wonder why they tended to stay away from the lower keys... maybe they were mice with high and squeaky voices with a liking for soprano notes?) The mice gnawing on the ivory is true! Whether they "tickled" the ivory is in doubt. ;-) John, (Anyone with a baby grand piano? I'd surely like one!)

[knight_knight_zzz]

By the way, y'all... yes, the white keys are ivory on both pianos. Guy, ALLIGATORS??? Are you kidding? If not, then tell me more! (And where is your proof of such an alligating allegation?) Sounds like pure allegorical alliteration to me! John.

[d-baron]

Guy, Are you overlooking one possibility? Could the ivory have been gnawed on by alligators before it left Africa? Transportation had to be pretty rustic and slow back then, and it often used water sources, ie: rivers, etc, as the easiest method of travel, so seems like there would have been plenty of opportunity for alligators to come into contact with ivory along the way. Probably considered it a real delicacy- didn't even have to tackle a whole, huge, angry elephant to get a bite, or two, or-.

[d-baron]

Are you kidding? If not, then tell me more! (And where is your proof of such an alligating allegation?) Sounds like pure allegorical alliteration to me! Um, John, just thought I should point out- Doesn't this belong on your Lament thread!!!! I'm just saying -