Ivory and ethical issues

[d-baron]

I have to admit, I have made a point in the past of never buying anything made of ivory. Basically because, I not only wanted to make sure that I wasn't inadvertently supporting modern day poachers but also because of the fact that an animal had to have died needlessly at some point in time to provide any kind of ivory put into circulation. Not sure I will ever be able to overlook that principle, even if it involves collecting chess sets. Hope that doesn't upset anyone. I think the ivory sets are often beautiful, but I suspect I would not be able to get that out of my mind while handling/playing with them. Duncan

[knight_knight_zzz]

Now, Duncan (yes, interrupting the flow, Guy)... 1.) How could gator nibbling be confused with rodent nibbling? A tad difference in size of the bite, wouldn't you say? 2.) And don't such large reptiles usually swallow whole fairly large pieces of whatever? 3.) In addition, (I must "plead ignorance"... and no comments from the peanut gallery out there... 😮 😉 ....) are there gators in Africa? Or are there only crocks? John, ("and that ain't no crock!")

[knight_knight_zzz]

Duncan, I am about to enter a heated argument (even if just for the sake of staying warm in these here northern hills!) Regarding your posting # 120... on this very thread here: Don't tempt me! (Oops! Too late!) John.... and away we go....!

[d-baron]

]:) -- Edited by baron.von.drivel at 02/07/2010 11:57 AM PST

[chesspurr]

Hi Duncan I have no doubt Mr Jaques manged to consider this idea once he ruled out the Reptiles running riot in 19th Century londons water supply . ;) In fact there is historical mention of tooth measurements taking place so as to create a demand for Rat poison . ;) So perhaps Jaques felt confident in believing that in most cases, long sea voyages, plus storage in the Ivory houses the material was at risk from Rats. Presumably he would have consulted with ships captains regarding Alligator stoways, who might have consumed a Seaman or two,then when the supply of Rat ran out,tasted the Ivory tusks . ]:) Then there is another problem, are not Alligators native to the America's, whilst its the Africans who rock with the Crocks ! ]:) -- Edited by chesspurr at 02/07/2010 12:12 PM PST

[knight_knight_zzz]

Guy, "Then there is another problem, are not Alligators native to the America's, whilst its the Africans who rock with the Crocks !" Copy "Cat"! (See # 3 on posting # 121 of this thread!) John.

[chesspurr]

Cats did you say " Cats " ;) I can understand a reluctance to have a big orange boy with Stripes wandering about 19th century London warehouses, even a large Lion, after all human life had a price in the second half of the 19th century . ;) Now why did Jaques and the other Ivory turners not simply have a selection of "Cats" to undertake "Rat Riddence" activity . ]:) Apparently in a museum at Oxford a speciman of Rat gnawed Ivory was on view, so clearly even the intellectuals of the time were interested in Rats and Ivory issues . Today Cats are considered to be Britains most popular pets, and had Jaques noted this at that long time ago, we just might have had a few more chessmen for us to savour. ]:)

[knight_knight_zzz]

Guy, For breakfast, I myself do NOT eat rats.... I eat CATS. And with Catsup... yup, for breakfast! Cats! What do they do? They come from all over the neighborhood... ....and onto my property and spray.... Ugh! Darn inconsiderate pet cat owners... ("Oh, it's only doing what it normally does"... and... "It ain't my cat... it was/is a stray and I just feed it"...) You must love the odor, eh, Cat Man? ;-) Don't get me wrong... It's not that I dislike cats. I actually hate them and the little balls of doo-doo they leave in our flower garden. Then again, maybe they are looking for the mice that tickled my ivory piano keys! Getting back to the important point... rats and ivory... Interesting that it seemed as though there had not been much mentioning of this in this group in months and years past... Now, are you sure about those cats and gators and rats? Or are you just a-Lyon... yup, a lying Lion. Where's the Catsup? Wanna War, Catman? Come to Vermont, and put up your paws! John. ;-) -- Edited by knight_knight_zzz at 02/07/2010 12:52 PM PST

[chesspurr]

Well John With all research there are bonus rewards,and this issue has a humerous side . Of course there is some speculation in this thread. Of course I will leave it to our esteemed group members to decide fact from fiction. ;) Duncan's admission is one I shall certainly be investigating ! ;) Be warned this thread is far from finished, Roland Rat, and finally the Pied Piper of Hamlyn is coming . ]:)

[d-baron]

Hmmm Guy, I actually had to look that up, as I thought there were more alligators in the world than in America. Turns out, we were both right. There are no alligators in Africa- but, seems like it would still easy to confuse crocodiles and alligators, especially while stressing out over the damage done to your valuable ivory. There are, however, alligators in China. But they are much smaller. They only reach half the size of their american counterparts. And they are almost extinct. Which explains two things. Why there is such a proliferation of fake chinese sets- not enough alligators around to eat them and keep their numbers under control, and two, the very small size of so many of those ubiquitous chinese sets- easier for the smaller chinese alligators to handle and consume.

[chesspurr]

Excellent research Baron ! Perhaps we can during the night recess consider why there are no Penguins in the North Pole . Ice Alligators which were of Chiniese Origin, tiring of tooth and so long ago enjoyed flesh. Back to the Rats, apparently when they dug their teeth right into the Ivory it had a suprising benefit for the turner. To locate good ivory one needed to view inside the material. Guess what Roland Rat gave the Turner a fine time saving heads up on which tusk to work on. ;) The greater the gnawing in many cases meant the better quality Ivory. So now we know that Jaques must have purchased damaged Ivory tusks, as he knew quality, whilst the other firms purchased the perfect stuff. ]:) Of course we already have worked out that Cowboys bought the Indian Ivory . 😉

[d-baron]

Sorry Guy, I have to disagree with you. I don't think we can attribute the absence of penquins at the north pole on chinese alligators. I think its fairly obvious they were all eaten by the Inuit people. But, perhaps the subject does deserve more research. Good point on the cowboys and indians. Although, in reality, I suspect it was a trade-off. Indian ivory traded for cowboy leather, or maybe even fresh bull.

[acf1515]

Hi All, I have noted the rat teeth marks on Ivory Statu Quo sets but NOT bone! Maybe it's the grain size that attracts them?? (This is why I chose Antartica to store my Quo sets!! It's too cold for the rats teeth and they shatter as they try to bite the pieces) Also dont forget that it is well known that sailing ships in the 1800's were infested with rats so some tusk damage could have happend en-route and as the journey from Indian is longer than that from Africa then this could account for a higher degree of rat activity with Indian Ivory. Cheers Jim

[chesspurr]

Sorry Jim Now that is pure conjecture, Mr Jaques claimed in the second half of the 19th century that those Rodents had a dislike for Indian Ivory. This is fact and not fiction, apparently it is to do with the amount of Gelatine in the tusk. X-( Some unfortunate investor purchased a year's supply of Indian dust and found his Jelly unsellable as it offered nothing of benefit to the early buyers . Days later his warehouse was burnt down, and he spent his remaining days in a workhouse,due to bankruptcy and died horribly, with the Rats giving him the last " Bites as they chewed his flesh " ]:) Yes Roland has alot to answer for, his prefered dinner being Green Ivory, on account of its Amber tinted transparent colour . 😉

[chesspurr]

The Hippotamus was commercially called a Sea Horse , and the Warlus called a Sea Cow. Now these two varieties of Ivory were used in the manufacture of Human teeth . So forget even thinking about Warlus Ivory chessmen. X-( A strange case of mystery occured in a London cemetary, a " Burke and Hare " bungle caused the wrong graves to be dug up within months of the burial , and not only were the clothes stolen off the bodies " Rats invaded the coffins and ate the Ivory teeth" off the unwanted deceased .

[chesspurr]

Rats have a remarkable instinct for finding out where there is anything good for food, and it has been often a subject of wonder how they managed to get on board Ships laden with Sugar, and other attractive cargoes. The mystery however has been cleared up, for they have been seen to come offshore to the Ship by means of the rope, by which she is moored to the quay, although some distance from the shore . When fattened to gluttonious levels a few "Pig Rats " did fall into the sea and made a tasty meal for those imaginary crocodiles that Mr Jaques questioned existed , as they came ashore by the same rope . Even a poor Literary detective will see from the wording of this and preceding postings, that some information was copied from a Book searched on Google. I confess to internet theft and breach of copy right . The additional text is of course my own work 😉 call it creative story telling. or Drivel ...oops sorry Baron ! I was trying to keep John happy . 😉