eBay Policy Change/Seller Protection Change when Buyer uses a Freight Forwarder?

[mangorunner]

I have always been of the understanding that the Buyer loses protection under the eBay Money Back Guarantee when using a Freight Forwarding service.  If the Seller ships the item and tracking shows it was delivered to the address of record in the original purchase, and the address is that of a Freight Forwarding service, then the eBay Money Back Guarantee does not apply.  The policy explicitly says that "Items shipped to another address after original delivery" are not covered.  (Following the link provided, scroll down to the section labeled "Not Covered".)

However, in another forum, there was a recent post that indicated otherwise - or at least a new caveat/nuance of which Sellers should take notice.  Regarding their Buyer's return request, the Seller (poster) relayed the following details.  (I've paraphrased):

Called eBay and eBay said the whole freight forwarding thing recently got changed.  They (eBay) can now only reject a return request if the Buyer actually *says* they used a forwarder in an eBay message.  Apparently, the fact that the shipping address belongs to a freight forwarder is no longer enough.  The eBay Rep said that buyers are claiming that they *work* at the freight-fowarding company - things like that  - in order that they may still be able to make returns and file INADs/SNADs.  The eBay Rep said that only way to actually prove that they used a freight forwarder is with a Buyer message acknowledging that.

I had an obvious freight-forwarder sale the other day.  I took photos of the item, contents as packed before the box was sealed, the box, and the shipping label and sent them to the Buyer with the message "I see you are using a Freight Forwarding service.  Here are photos of the item as it is being shipped so that you have them for your records."  I received no reply from the Buyer.

Has anyone heard about this change?  Any recent experience in this area?  Is there truth to this policy change?  Are you now confirming the use of a FF with your Buyer via eBay message prior to shipping?

[gramophone-georg]

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@ersatz_sobriquet wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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 though it is possible to determine the location of a buyer when they make their purchase, this still would not be evidence that they forwarded the item. Buyers can set a shipping address that is different from their address on file or their current location; many buyers will have items shipped to family and friends, or have an item shipped to a location where they will be travelling. 

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@Anonymous 

So what DOES qualify as evidence? 

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It's probably a secret "for our own good"; after all, that's how eBay likes to play these things.

Once again- there's been a regime change, and all the sweet talk of enhanced seller protection is in the air- yet THIS is what we're getting, it seems... enhanced ways for predatory buyers to rip sellers off.

There's ALWAYS "what eBay says" and then there's "what eBay does".

[ersatz_sobriquet]

Hi Georg! Long time no see, Don't be such a stranger! 🙂

It seems ebay is doing this because under managed payments sellers will no longer be able to block buyers from other countries? Is that what I am understanding? So in order to acclimate sellers to the next step, which is forced MP, this seller protection from forwarding must be done away with! I foresee forced GSP too in the future.

It will be time to say good-bye to ebay when that day arrives, and I won't be buying here either.

I will not be sending my items overseas unless it is MY choice, and haven't for years, ever since ebay decided that a not as described case is always won by the buyer and I am required to pay that return shipping. At that point exactly I quit selling overseas, whereas in years previously I had sold some higher value items to many people but only in countries I trust. But back then theft was not rampant on ebay, nor lies, or it seemed that way. Perhaps it was all an illusion. 

[dasarock]

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@ersatz_sobriquet wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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 though it is possible to determine the location of a buyer when they make their purchase, this still would not be evidence that they forwarded the item. Buyers can set a shipping address that is different from their address on file or their current location; many buyers will have items shipped to family and friends, or have an item shipped to a location where they will be travelling. 

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@Anonymous 

So what DOES qualify as evidence? 

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@Anonymous 

also, is there a way, (which I know could be coded in to the site preferences) to set up a preference which allows the seller to choose what is best for them?  whether to allow sales to mail forwarding addresses or not (yes or no setting).  remember that many times ONE return and loss (mostly due to eBay's penchant for easy returns and buyer always being right); not counting the stats hit the seller takes … takes anyway between TWO - FIVE clear sales to recover from.  

for ebay to do anything else or otherwise is tantamount to ebay forcing sales which have a high velocity and count as turning into returns, at seller's expense.  because we all know that ebay doesn't take the hit.

so many of these issues always coming up would be easily fixed in site preferences by allowing sellers to control their own listings.

[mam98031]

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@ersatz_sobriquet wrote:

Hi Georg! Long time no see, Don't be such a stranger! 🙂

It seems ebay is doing this because under managed payments sellers will no longer be able to block buyers from other countries? Is that what I am understanding? So in order to acclimate sellers to the next step, which is forced MP, this seller protection from forwarding must be done away with! I foresee forced GSP too in the future.

It will be time to say good-bye to ebay when that day arrives, and I won't be buying here either.

I will not be sending my items overseas unless it is MY choice, and haven't for years, ever since ebay decided that a not as described case is always won by the buyer and I am required to pay that return shipping. At that point exactly I quit selling overseas, whereas in years previously I had sold some higher value items to many people but only in countries I trust. But back then theft was not rampant on ebay, nor lies, or it seemed that way. Perhaps it was all an illusion. 

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I think that is a bit of an over reaction.  First the use of Freight Forwarders has been around for many many years.  Long before MP was even considered.

Second, Ebay can't force sellers to ship internationally.  There is no way for them to do that.  One thing that is really preventative from this ever happening is that there are certain things that can't be shipped into certain countries.  Ebay would have to become an expert on distinguishing this with accuracy or risk significant penalties.  That is not likely to happen.  Heck I gave up on shipping fragrances internationally years ago.  The rules are significant and extremely complicated.  There is no way Ebay is going to venture into that hot mess.

And Ebay doesn't now force any sellers to ship internationally.  Shipping to a freight forwarder is not the same thing.

[Anonymous]

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@ersatz_sobriquet wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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 though it is possible to determine the location of a buyer when they make their purchase, this still would not be evidence that they forwarded the item. Buyers can set a shipping address that is different from their address on file or their current location; many buyers will have items shipped to family and friends, or have an item shipped to a location where they will be travelling. 

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@Anonymous 

So what DOES qualify as evidence? 

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Hi @ersatz_sobriquet, evidence would be objective proof that the item was forwarded. One such example would be if the buyer stated they had the item forwarded. 

Ultimately, I can see that this topic has raised a considerable level of concern for those involved in this discussion, and I want to clarify for everyone that this has been our stance for quite some time. It isn't clear in this thread what situation has been imagined that leads sellers to believe they will somehow be victims of fraud, but I can reassure everyone that the hypothetical worst case scenario in your minds is unlikely to actually occur. Again, I don't see that a specific scenario has been outlined by anyone here of how this clarification poses a higher risk or harm to sellers, but I do want to reiterate that sellers are still protected from an item not received request when they have proof of delivery to the address provided, and they are not required to pay for return shipping costs in a location other than the one the item was shipped to. Because of this, many sellers within our Community report excitement and satisfaction with an item being shipped to the address of a known forwarding company, as their liability is reduced.

This policy is unrelated to managed payments or any other suggestions raised here; we have simply clarified that assumptions about an item being forwarded are not the same as proof that an item has been forwarded. To disqualify a buyer from protection, we would need evidence that the item was forwarded beyond assumptions based on the shipping address, registration address, location at the time of purchase, or location at the time they report concerns. Your buyers are fully capable of travelling or owning a forwarding company, so it would not be reasonable to invalidate any concerns they raise simply because the item was shipped to a forwarding company.

[ersatz_sobriquet]

Well there we have it. We have lost forwarding protection unless the buyer confesses. 

[mr_lincoln]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@mr_lincoln wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@mangorunner wrote:

I have always been of the understanding that the Buyer loses protection under the eBay Money Back Guarantee when using a Freight Forwarding service.  If the Seller ships the item and tracking shows it was delivered to the address of record in the original purchase, and the address is that of a Freight Forwarding service, then the eBay Money Back Guarantee does not apply.  The policy explicitly says that "Items shipped to another address after original delivery" are not covered.  (Following the link provided, scroll down to the section labeled "Not Covered".)

However, in another forum, there was a recent post that indicated otherwise - or at least a new caveat/nuance of which Sellers should take notice.  Regarding their Buyer's return request, the Seller (poster) relayed the following details.  (I've paraphrased):

Called eBay and eBay said the whole freight forwarding thing recently got changed.  They (eBay) can now only reject a return request if the Buyer actually *says* they used a forwarder in an eBay message.  Apparently, the fact that the shipping address belongs to a freight forwarder is no longer enough.  The eBay Rep said that buyers are claiming that they *work* at the freight-fowarding company - things like that  - in order that they may still be able to make returns and file INADs/SNADs.  The eBay Rep said that only way to actually prove that they used a freight forwarder is with a Buyer message acknowledging that.

I had an obvious freight-forwarder sale the other day.  I took photos of the item, contents as packed before the box was sealed, the box, and the shipping label and sent them to the Buyer with the message "I see you are using a Freight Forwarding service.  Here are photos of the item as it is being shipped so that you have them for your records."  I received no reply from the Buyer.

Has anyone heard about this change?  Any recent experience in this area?  Is there truth to this policy change?  Are you now confirming the use of a FF with your Buyer via eBay message prior to shipping?

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Hi @mangorunner, when the delivery address is that of a forwarding service this is not by itself enough evidence to say the item was forwarded - forwarding companies have employees, and those employees may have purchases shipped to the office. I personally have all of my orders shipped to my office, as do many of my colleagues and friends. When there is proof that a buyer has had an item forwarded beyond the original delivery address, they would no longer be covered by the eBay Money Back Guarantee. To withhold protection from a buyer, we do require evidence beyond the delivery address being that of a forwarding company.

I know this may seem strange, but years ago I personally spoke with the owner of one of these companies who had a case closed against him for a high value item because the assumption was made that the item was forwarded (don't worry, we corrected our mistake for this buyer). Additionally, many forwarding services will inspect and retain the item for their customers if this option is selected. I've worked with many of these companies personally when I worked in our Money Back Guarantee department. These are just a couple of examples of why we do not use the address by itself as evidence of an item being forwarded.

That being said, we can see if the address shipped to is a forwarding address and will consider this in conjunction with other details when reviewing the case to determine if the transaction qualifies for protection. You are welcome to contact Customer Service to review the specific details of your transaction if you have any concerns.

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@Anonymous   My only problem with this reply is eBay should be able to determine the country of Buyer origin with a simple IP address check via a site like ARIN.net ("whois.arin.net) ... IP addresses are registered and assigned to local internet service providers (in large blocks of IP addresses) in the country of origin.  For example, Netvigator in Hong Kong is assigned a large block of IP addresses for its users, some are permanently assigned to businesses and others are used as random roll over IPs for public hot spots.  So a Buyer there will use their local IP address to access the internet then proceed to a US URL to log in and create an account, etc. Its no different then the header information on an email from another country as the entire IP address "history" travels from the sender's computer or electronic device to the recipient's device is recorded with the message.   Older Outlook programs had this info readily available, newer versions you really have to drill down to get it ... but its there.

So even if a Buyer logs on to the US site to register their account their IP address is registered with a foreign service provider.  So, that means eBay does have a way to determine if a Buyer is IN our country or not.

If eBay can monitor the IP addresses of multiple accounts here in the US to check to see if accounts are "associated" (ie to check for circumventing blocks, etc) then it goes without saying they KNOW when a Buyer is physically located IN or OUT of the US.

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Hi @mr_lincoln, though it is possible to determine the location of a buyer when they make their purchase, this still would not be evidence that they forwarded the item. Buyers can set a shipping address that is different from their address on file or their current location; many buyers will have items shipped to family and friends, or have an item shipped to a location where they will be travelling. 

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I replied as it related to the OP discussing Buyers who use Freight Forwarding companies ...

[mangorunner]

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@ersatz_sobriquet wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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 though it is possible to determine the location of a buyer when they make their purchase, this still would not be evidence that they forwarded the item. Buyers can set a shipping address that is different from their address on file or their current location; many buyers will have items shipped to family and friends, or have an item shipped to a location where they will be travelling. 

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@Anonymous 

So what DOES qualify as evidence? 

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At this point, that is a very good question.  What is the purpose of this statement in the policy?  To what situation does it apply?  How does the Seller prove that situation exists (if indeed, there is an applicable situation)?

[ersatz_sobriquet]

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@mangorunner wrote:

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@ersatz_sobriquet wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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 though it is possible to determine the location of a buyer when they make their purchase, this still would not be evidence that they forwarded the item. Buyers can set a shipping address that is different from their address on file or their current location; many buyers will have items shipped to family and friends, or have an item shipped to a location where they will be travelling. 

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@Anonymous 

So what DOES qualify as evidence? 

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At this point, that is a very good question.  What is the purpose of this statement in the policy?  To what situation does it apply?  How does the Seller prove that situation exists (if indeed, there is an applicable situation)?

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Quietly, silently, in the dead of night in the near future...

that page will be altered as necessary. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. 

[mam98031]

That policy page pic'd above has read that way for many years.  You talk as if all this is a new policy when it just isn't.  

[gramophone-georg]

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@mangorunner wrote:

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@ersatz_sobriquet wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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 though it is possible to determine the location of a buyer when they make their purchase, this still would not be evidence that they forwarded the item. Buyers can set a shipping address that is different from their address on file or their current location; many buyers will have items shipped to family and friends, or have an item shipped to a location where they will be travelling. 

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@Anonymous 

So what DOES qualify as evidence? 

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At this point, that is a very good question.  What is the purpose of this statement in the policy?  To what situation does it apply?  How does the Seller prove that situation exists (if indeed, there is an applicable situation)?

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Exactly! If I sell an item that I have listed as "USA sales only", I sell it and ship it to Connecticut- only to get a SNAD from somebody in St. Petersburg, Russia... how is that going to work?

[gramophone-georg]

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@mam98031 wrote:

That policy page pic'd above has read that way for many years.  You talk as if all this is a new policy when it just isn't.  

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Eh?

No, what we're talking about is the new part where the policy that's been the policy for years... suddenly isn't, without any announcement, even.

[mam98031]

@gramophone-georg 

Exactly! If I sell an item that I have listed as "USA sales only", I sell it and ship it to Connecticut- only to get a SNAD from somebody in St. Petersburg, Russia... how is that going to work?

As has already been explained, the seller is responsible for the return shipping FROM the address in which it was delivered to on the purchase agreement in Ebay / PP payment transaction.  If the item is now at a different location such as a different country, the buyer would be responsible for return shipping.

[gramophone-georg]

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@mam98031 wrote:

@gramophone-georg 

Exactly! If I sell an item that I have listed as "USA sales only", I sell it and ship it to Connecticut- only to get a SNAD from somebody in St. Petersburg, Russia... how is that going to work?

As has already been explained, the seller is responsible for the return shipping FROM the address in which it was delivered to on the purchase agreement in Ebay / PP payment transaction.  If the item is now at a different location such as a different country, the buyer would be responsible for return shipping.

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Where did I ask about shipping?

Now that you bring it up, though... how would that shipping standoff end, do you suppose?

[ersatz_sobriquet]

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@gramophone-georg wrote:

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@mam98031 wrote:

That policy page pic'd above has read that way for many years.  You talk as if all this is a new policy when it just isn't.  

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Eh?

No, what we're talking about is the new part where the policy that's been the policy for years... suddenly isn't, without any announcement, even.

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It's not the policy page wording that has changed, it is the meaning of those words that have changed. Kind of like rewriting a dictionary! Interpreting words with new connotations, giving words new hidden meanings. I don't have the quote from you Georg, but I believe you have said something to that effect many times before.

It would be funny, this reinterpretation of these words,  but it's not because as usual, sellers are the losers in this deal.