Solution to the "refund for INR while order is in-transit" problem

[aldente28]

I hope I'm not the only one who thinks refunding buyers for INR cases while an order is still in-transit is a problem.

We live in an age of a deadly pandemic, state and county lockdowns, Covid-related mail delays, and as if that weren't enough, an administration that is literally slowing down the mail for political reasons.

Rather than giving buyers their money back when their order is delayed in the mail - often only to show up after they get their money back - how about ebay puts the money in escrow within their Managed Payments system. They control payments now. This seems easy enough to do.

1. A buyer files an INR for a late order where tracking indicates "in-transit"

2. ebay waits a reasonable amount of time

3. if no movement, ebay takes the purchase money and puts it in an escrow account

4. if after 3 weeks  (or whatever) the package indeed doesn't arrive, buyer gets the money

5, if after 3 weeks (or whatever) the package shows "delivered", money goes back to the seller

I trust we can all agree that refunding buyers for "in-transit" orders only to have that order delivered is a rather regrettable thing that everyone involved would like to prevent.

This escrow system puts everyone on notice, including the seller, who at least has the option to try to resolve the issue with USPS before some due date in order to not lose their money. If seller can do something to get the package delivered, problem solved. If not, at least there was an option to try, or to let it go if not worth it.

[jaysandkays]

eBay will throw the seller under the bus. While your suggestion of escrow has some merit, the buyer can also then open a claim with PayPal and PayPal is, in my opinion, worse for sellers than eBay. I don't see this changing any time soon. One solution is to go sell on Etsy instead. 

Etsy defends the seller. As long as the seller can prove the item was dispatched and that it was addressed with the correct address as per what the buyer provided in checkout, Etsy will not force the seller to refund an INR. They do ask the seller to try to work it out with the buyer and leave it up to that.

And with Etsy, the seller can properly respond to feedback/reviews with a real paragraph's worth of information rather than a ridiculously limited number of characters.

[donsdetour]

The problem is that the seller is responsible to get the item tho the purchaser.

This is typical  practice and in most cases law.

The real problem is that the USPS is not being held accountable for their actions.

[jobr-574358]

That's going to run off quite a few buyers.  We have to wait a week or more for the delivery, and when it doesn't arrive, we have to wait a week for the INR to process, then add another three weeks or more for some escrow?  No, it's faster to just go to your bank and do a chargeback.  Nobody is willing to have their money tied up for almost six weeks while the seller gets around to actually shipping the item (usually).  No, we want to just go on to the next seller and cut our losses.    I've had a few items that didn't arrive, and I had to get a refund.  Guess what?  NONE ever arrived.  

[aldente28]

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@donsdetour wrote:

The real problem is that the USPS is not being held accountable for their actions.

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I disagree. There is nothing to hold them responsible for with a delay of First Class Pkg as it is not a time guaranteed service. The problem here is that with a delay - whether normal or due to extraordinary circumstances -  ebay forces refunds to buyers, then the package is delivered and sellers lose everything - their money, their product, and what they paid for shipping.

Just Friday I refunded $30 for a package "in-transit". It was magically delivered yesterday after 3 weeks (to go 300 miles). I lose $30, my product, and my shipping charge.

In the end I understand I am out my product and the shipping fee, but this is the process. However you calculate it, sellers lose everything in these transactions.

[gwzcomps]

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@soh.maryl wrote:

On the other hand, we're not eBay "employees".  There's a distinct difference between our relationship with eBay as opposed to that of Amazon employees to Amazon.  People tend to forget that.  

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Amazon has third party sellers that fulfill their own orders.  I have bought from some even.  Ironically they provide a better service than Amazon if you don't have prime.

[gwzcomps]

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@ameri_kiwi92 wrote:

Peeing in bottles (nor ANY drug test) has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I've lost two jobs over false positives on drug tests (used poppy seeds in cooking and hemp seed oil on salads - neither has remotely enough of the "active ingredient" to have any discernible effect - only trace amounts, but enough to cause false positives on hypersensitive drugs tests (and they all are).      

A competent employer should be able to tell from direct observation if an employee's performance is impaired for whatever reason.    Drug tests serve no useful purpose other than to increase pharmaceutical's profits.   I've worked on jobs where some people used drugs to the degree that their performance was notably impaired but they got no consequences because they'd learned how to game the drug tests (and their employers were too incompetent to pick up on the impaired performance - or too busing firing people for using hemp seed oil or poppy seeds).

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I wasn't referring to drug tests.

https://nypost.com/2018/04/16/amazon-warehouse-workers-pee-into-bottles-to-avoid-wasting-time-underc...

[chapeau-noir]

My area is crawling with Amazon vans and almost all of them are driven in a half-frantic manner, and the drivers actually RUN to the front door, drop the package onto the stoop, take the photo and RUN back into the van.  Amazon was hiring more delivery people, and I use to do delivery as a bike courier (I still volunteer with my bike and trailer) so have done the work, but I just couldn't see myself working under those conditions. 

[lja440]

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@evry1nositswindy wrote:

Agreed.  I had a package take nearly a month.  I had to refund because a case was opened.  I still watched the tracking and once it was delivered I messaged the buyer.  They were super happy with their books and paid via PayPal invoice.  I was still out double fees though, but I got paid for my items that they FINALLY received.  I am babysitting all of my media mail tracking and letting my buyers know I am on top of it.  Knock wood, this is the only case that has been opened since I started doing that.

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I'm selling only in the B&M at the moment, I even added books to my space though I usually only have pop culture related books audiobooks and kids books with records, I tossed in a shelf of novels. My main items are LP records. 

I did recently start buying record lots here again, usually I hit garage sales, outdoor flea markets and auctions but due to covid these are few now. So far my Media Mail packages are arriving in good time, but even if they don't I'm sure not going to jump the gun and file an INR. I always wait until day 28 or so before doing that the few times I have needed to. The only way I open a case before that is if the delivery estimate has passed and there is no indication that the item has been shipped.

[inhawaii]

That's a great idea and makes a lot of sense, therefore...

IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

[24ra_20]

How do you as a buyer "give more time" after opening a case of INR?

You have so many days, the case times out, then what?

Big risk for me as a seller to hope a buyer won't escalate.

[chapeau-noir]

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@24ra_20 wrote:

How do you as a buyer "give more time" after opening a case of INR?

You have so many days, the case times out, then what?

Big risk for me as a seller to hope a buyer won't escalate.

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You give some time BEFORE opening the INR.  As a buyer I would first contact the seller, but I'd also be checking the tracking number.

[hknumismatics]

For starters I think your idea is excellent, and definitely something that eBay should be looking at. However, I think it is primarily likely to be accurate for US sales domestically. International metrics/shipping data, especially for sellers not located in US will be a lot more local and unreliable for using as the data points may be insufficient.

One important point I would like to add is that at the invoicing stage there should be an option like "International surface mail" (Suggested that this allows for 60 days to show up) as many countries are now going by seamail and not by airmail. This would then help eBay to estimate the delivery time correctly.

Right now I cannot indicate that the item is getting shipped by sea mail, and it is impossible for eBay to be up to date with all the international current delivery times (Say seller in Australia, buyer in Mexico or whatever). But it would prevent my US bound shipments from showing "estimated delivery time by Sep 10" when the estimated time should be more like 2-3 months and not 1 month.

I have so far 3 lost INR cases due to items going by sea mail (and the buyers knowing it and being aware of the expected 2-3 months to arrive). The buyers lose their ability to open INR claims after a set time of the estimated delivery date, so I have also had buyers that lose their buyer protection and then come and complain to me (all of these cases have had the item turn up within 3 months in their postbox. I would of course manually refund them if it was a truly lost item). It is incredibly frustrating to losing both money and goods, as well as getting infractions on your account for items that are completely outside the seller's control. The eBay rules and estimated delivery times work well under normal circumstances, but at this time not at all.

[gracieallen01]

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@aldente28 wrote:

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Today on CNBC, ebay's CEO said he wants to build relationships with sellers, and he laid out lots of optimistic goals for buyers and sellers, including creating lasting relationships and an ecosystem conducive to growing the business.

I think some enterprising ebay employee could impress the CEO by solving this problem, which is easily among the top 5 toxicity creators in the community.

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If I'm not mistaken, DW said something along those lines when he took over, way back when, and some employees, in upper level positions, 'found other jobs' sometime later, too.  Nobody is telling if there was any connection.

[vintagecraze50]

This is an indisputable FACT now that USPS is not operating normally. So, as to responding to this fact, Ebay needs to BLOCK premature INR requests with a prompt like Fed Ex does, tracking shows your package is on it’s way. With reference to COVID and USPS issues. Forget the escrow blah blah.

[vintagecraze50]

Adding, simple easily implemented.