Irrational and Delusional Buyer Escalating to Pay Pal - Where is seller protection?

[mitote76]

All of our items have clear, high resolution photographs illustrating and highlighting details of what makes the item great as well as clear images of any flaw big or small. Sizing is a no brainer as images of all tags are included and then reiterated in the item description box as well as in text. We have had 100% positive feedback from buyers as "item exactly as described" because that's how we conduct buisness, transparency and clearly and openly describing each and every item in it's used condition usually Great- Excellent, we always try to sell worth while items. Let me be clear it is posted that we do not accept returns. Then it is reiterated that WE DO NOT ACCEPT RETURNS. 

Now fast forward to this incident where an Extra Extra Large person tried to blame the seller that "Item Not As Described". Huh? What was the problem? "It didn't fit, I could not get my arms into it". Uhm... please this is a call to all rational people, who's problem is that? If there are images of the brand and size tag, who is responsible for whether the item fits or not? Ebay clearly ruled in our favor so then she escalated to paypal who failed to do their due dilingence and investigate this bogus claim. This individual then cut off the tag of the coat and made it seem like the seller was deceitful... "Seller said the coat was a large and it's a small" where is seller protection? 

Further the fact that she could excalate this to paypal and now this entire thing is dealt with outside of ebay where all the facts and details of the item description, photographs and email correspondence and ebays own decision took place is out the window as paypal and ebay have no communication or cross over in these matters... Makes ebay an unsafe and unreliable place to sell- no protection from crazy people. All this at sellers expense. 

[bonjourami]

Not accepting returns doesnt mean no refunds for snad. Maybe it would help if you put the measurements on your clothing items?

[dhbookds]

For  your own good, start putting measurements in listings........it's going to save you alot of headaches........

[ittybitnot]

Makes ebay an unsafe and unreliable place to sell- no protection from crazy people. All this at sellers expense. 

So sorry you had to deal with this. There is no seller protection for a not as described claim even if it is exactly as described.  You may say 'no returns', but it does not mean in ebay land "no refunds".  Hopefully, you did not have an expensive lesson while viewing how the system now works. 

[ittybitnot]

At least with a PayPal claim, if you select "return for refund" the postage for the return is on the buyer's dime.  Just like ebay, however, it matters not what they put in the box for the return.  An empty one will suffice to get a refund from your proceeds. 

[castlemagicmemories]

Measurements help.  Sizes vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and even from item to item from one manufacturer.  Just saying L isn't sufficient.

[18704d]

"Further the fact that she could excalate this to paypal and now this entire thing is dealt with outside of ebay where all the facts and details of the item description, photographs and email correspondence and ebays own decision took place is out the window..."

---------

Even on eBay.. a Not As Described complainer will be allowed to return for a full refund... because right or wrong.. eBay doesn't know if you actually sent what the listing showed.

Others have stated to put meaurements in your listing.

My advice?

Record how many such faulty returns you get.

Is this the first?   If so, congratulations.

If this happens 1 out of 20 times .. relax.

Just raise your prices 5% or so, to 'absorb' that occasional loss.

Take care,

Lynn

[luckythewinner]

Where is seller protection?

On eBay, you have seller protection from: 

• Item Not Recieved claims (if you properly provide proer tracking) ; and
• having to refund twice (if you refund correctly the first time) 

That's all the protection you have. Anything else is at eBay's discretion. 

As to PayPal seller protection, that might be a question for PayPal or a PayPal community. 

[femmefan1946]

@mitote76

Let me be clear it is posted that we do not accept returns. Then it is reiterated that WE DO NOT ACCEPT RETURNS. 

Neither eBay nor Paypal will insist that you accept returns.

Both insist that you make refunds.

Notice the difference in spelling. The two words also have different meanings.

PP will insist that your buyer return the item with tracking on her own dime.

When you get it back, you are required to refund.

Even if you refuse the returned item.

If you do not refund, PP will refund the customer and come after you (and your bank account and your credit card which you gave them permission to access) for their money.

You are not going to win this.

Refund gracefully.

If you lose the eBay dispute, the buyer can leave feedback.

[fashunu4eeuh]

Selling pre-owned clothing can be a challenge where sizes are concerned, making it crucial to have measurements in the listing. As another poster said, sizes vary (sometimes wildly) from manufacturer to manufacturer. Pre-owned clothing can also be altered by the cleaning process, or by the consumer over the life of the garment. 

Selling clothing in a No Return listing is also a big challenge. A determined buyer intent on a doesn't-fit refund will turn to SNAD as a means to an end. It may not be right, but it happens never-the-less. And with a SNAD, the seller is on the hook for return shipping. Best to be prepared and write that expense into one’s business plan. Or consider offering returns, buyer pays the shipping back.

Selling on eBay isn't for everyone. 

[softersilk]

@mitote76 wrote:

All of our items have clear, high resolution photographs illustrating and highlighting details of what makes the item great as well as clear images of any flaw big or small. Sizing is a no brainer as images of all tags are included and then reiterated in the item description box as well as in text. We have had 100% positive feedback from buyers as "item exactly as described" because that's how we conduct buisness, transparency and clearly and openly describing each and every item in it's used condition usually Great- Excellent, we always try to sell worth while items. Let me be clear it is posted that we do not accept returns. Then it is reiterated that WE DO NOT ACCEPT RETURNS. 

Now fast forward to this incident where an Extra Extra Large person tried to blame the seller that "Item Not As Described". Huh? What was the problem? "It didn't fit, I could not get my arms into it". Uhm... please this is a call to all rational people, who's problem is that? If there are images of the brand and size tag, who is responsible for whether the item fits or not? Ebay clearly ruled in our favor so then she escalated to paypal who failed to do their due dilingence and investigate this bogus claim. This individual then cut off the tag of the coat and made it seem like the seller was deceitful... "Seller said the coat was a large and it's a small" where is seller protection? 

Further the fact that she could excalate this to paypal and now this entire thing is dealt with outside of ebay where all the facts and details of the item description, photographs and email correspondence and ebays own decision took place is out the window as paypal and ebay have no communication or cross over in these matters... Makes ebay an unsafe and unreliable place to sell- no protection from crazy people. All this at sellers expense. 

20 years selling here and let me suggest:

TAKE RETURNS.  Charge shipping, don't offer free returns.  To say "no returns"* just means buyer is going to lie.

* On stuff where it's not a sanitary issue to take returns.

Re: measurement: MIGHT HELP, might not.  Plenty of people still return.  They may not know their measurements.  Offering this is no guarantee.  But taking returns prevents SNADS.

[patd3283]

FWIW, I don't know where you product originates.  In many Asian countries, the arms and legs are smaller than in US made clothes.  Maybe they have not had enoough FF.

Patd

[juststuffisell]

I would disagree with some of the people here that say "add measurements". It is a lot of additional work per piece to take all the measurements needed to prevent this situation, especially if it is an unusual set of circumstances relative to the entire sales history of a product category. If sales are brisk without issue and you have one issue, do you change the entire process at a higher cost per item? Eh...probably not.

What I will say to the OP is very simple - you should have taken the item back. It sounds like an isolated incident, and the number of these you will get - as you have inferred - is next to none. So what is one return a year worth in hassle and aggravation? Is it worth paying the return shipping on a SNAD? I think so. You'd have the item back and be out a few bucks. Doesn't change your no-return policy so nobody but you, eBay, Paypal and the buyer knows you actually took an item back.

Just saying.....sometimes we cause our own aggravation & heartburn by being unwilling to compromise. Principle is one thing...but if you are going to stand on it, you will sometimes fall with it.

Cheers

[turquoisetulips]

@mitote76 wrote:

All of our items have clear, high resolution photographs illustrating and highlighting details of what makes the item great as well as clear images of any flaw big or small. Sizing is a no brainer as images of all tags are included and then reiterated in the item description box as well as in text. We have had 100% positive feedback from buyers as "item exactly as described" because that's how we conduct buisness, transparency and clearly and openly describing each and every item in it's used condition usually Great- Excellent, we always try to sell worth while items. Let me be clear it is posted that we do not accept returns. Then it is reiterated that WE DO NOT ACCEPT RETURNS. 

Now fast forward to this incident where an Extra Extra Large person tried to blame the seller that "Item Not As Described". Huh? What was the problem? "It didn't fit, I could not get my arms into it". Uhm... please this is a call to all rational people, who's problem is that? If there are images of the brand and size tag, who is responsible for whether the item fits or not? Ebay clearly ruled in our favor so then she escalated to paypal who failed to do their due dilingence and investigate this bogus claim. This individual then cut off the tag of the coat and made it seem like the seller was deceitful... "Seller said the coat was a large and it's a small" where is seller protection? 

Further the fact that she could excalate this to paypal and now this entire thing is dealt with outside of ebay where all the facts and details of the item description, photographs and email correspondence and ebays own decision took place is out the window as paypal and ebay have no communication or cross over in these matters... Makes ebay an unsafe and unreliable place to sell- no protection from crazy people. All this at sellers expense. 

I'm sorry this happened . However as for myself  whenever I'm shopping for clothing on e bay  if the measurements are not included in the listing  I pass it by . Its very very true that sizes vary depending on what company made them . Thats why its very important to add the measurements . You could also mention in your listings  if the potentional  buyer doesn't know their measurements  then before  making the purchase they should measure  a like  item in their closet that does fit them . I realize this all will take a little extra work ,, but it's worth it . Good luck . Tulips 

[pamedelc]

Frustrating? yes. Surprising? no.   Some folks don't have the blessings that we may have... This is even worse:

Recent google searches gave me info about "Charge-back" SCAMS which I narrowly avoided yesterday.  A buyer pays, then says the item did not arrive, etc.  They file a grievance through PAYPAL instead of Ebay. I learned PP frequently  sides with Buyers. They can zip the money back to the buyer & you are out the item, time & cash. Why PP doesn't investigate the tracking or tell them to direct concerns to shipping service, I don't know.  They know PP sides with Buyers & aides the scam...Be WARNED ON HALLOWEEN!!   We have scary stuff all year to deal with....

P.S. What tipped me off was "Korea" in the Buyers name, the address was a Warehouse when I checked Google maps & Googling the Buyers name yielded several complaints - the Buyer had Top Rated  Status -  Insulting!!!!