01-03-2024 07:48 AM
I just saw some information saying that this new offsite ads program ( that ebay is offering us $100 to try) is in beta testing now and sometime in 2024 should go full scale. The intent is for ebay to no longer pay google for any ad space so our listings will only show up on google if WE pay ebay the offsite ads premiums.( so if our listing is a perfect match, it wont show unless we pay ebay more...)
The problem is that with ebay's search engine being so overmanipulated with promoted listings and irrelevant results- most people use google to find ebay listings!
Are they setting up a situation that will kill sales for anyone who does not pay to pay further?!
If this is the case- what value does ebay offer at all?- if we need to pay google for placement and ads- why not just get our own websites and pay google?
My first thought is that this would only affect the "shopping" tab on google and that the general search because if google cant "look" for matching listings in its own search- what good is google then?
Either way- ebay is providing less and less and costing more..... Isnt that what ebay is supposed to do for our FVF?- advertise and bring buyers to the platform.
01-03-2024 10:04 AM
I am waiting for eBay to realize that their income was higher when they just ran the site, let sellers sell, and collect their fees. While they continue to chase after that 5%-25% promoted fee, they are losing billions in sales and are too ashamed to admit it. The only reason many sellers are still on eBay is because they have inventory and created listings, so why not. But I guarantee the amount of new listings being created in 2023 vs. prior years is way down.
01-03-2024 10:17 AM
"Im sure it depends on what you are searching for but i search (research) all day 6 days a week and have constantly found few accurate results on ebay search- then like you mentioned, I go to google and the first several results are live ebay listings that are exactly what i was searching and they did not show up on ebay search."
siamjane8, one reason I never go to google first is because, like you said, the results you see are for live eBay listings. Whenever I'm researching something to sell on eBay, my first search is on eBay and is for listings that have already sold, rather than seeing live listings with asking prices that don't often mean much.
A problem I have with eBay concerning their search is that it used to be much better, but they fixed it by making it worse of course. For example, a long time ago you could do a boolean search or one of those asterisk searches which were really helpful when trying to pin down something within a range of dates for example, but now their searches pretty much ignore or mess up those types of searches because of the way they manipulate the searches to then manipulate the buyers into buying something they might not even be looking for.
01-03-2024 10:39 AM
@siamjane8 wrote:
Pay to Play is never good for anyone except the "host"
Couldn't be further from the truth, yet you give the 'suggestion' to "open a website and advertise direct'???
That is EXACTLY how Google does it (pay per click) and that is exactly how someone can get to the 1st page or top of 1st page, on Amazon, Google, Ebay etc.
How ELSE would anyone get on top when there are 35000 other listings of the 'same thing'??
01-03-2024 10:53 AM
@stainlessenginecovers wrote:To have ANY real effect on Google for your OWN website, it would cost well over $10,000 a month.
So that is not an option for most.
The rest it's best to just 'wait and see'.
Well this depends, its a sweeping statement and not exactly spot on as its highly dependent on multiple factors such as what one is peddling. For example, I've slews of old PC Software and likely not have a whole lot of competition in Google Paid Promotion direct.
The problem here isn't what eBay is spending towards Google. The problem is Google is changing their ways for several reasons. First the company been accused again and again of how they care rank commerce. Google has several layers of search engines for any given criteria. If you're searching buy product you're hitting a completely different search platform than looking for the history of parks and results integrate based on varying engines resultant data sets. Its EXTREMELY complex for something that in the human brain appears simple.
Used to be type things in and dozens eBay results come back, now not so much. Yet if you care to add "eBay" to the search string criteria at Google, blamo... There it all is. Now however the web has changed, post Covid lockdowns every retailer of note across the planet is or has mainstreamed the web, its no longer a value added asset, its mainstream and integral to expanding business models thanks in large part to Walmarts just ENORMOUS success online and their business model associated.
For Google, well that presents issues and opportunities and that is exactly what they addressing and seizing upon at the same time.
You might have seen me write on NUMEROUS occasions my friend that the web has changed. That I'd bet a dozen donuts if we could see a graph of eBay wane versus big retailer mainstreaming the web, the graphs will correlate rather well. Folks have finite money, the deals coming out online by ever so many of these big players result in spending there, less spent here or even perhaps elsewhere. Just as Brick & Mortar have always had to compete for traffic. Just as when Walmart Super Stores open someplace other businesses tend to suffer as they suck in the consumer dollars leaving less to spend at other local stores.
See where I am going?
Google is the #1 aggregator of traffic bar none and really for years that company struggled in concepts of eCommerce like remember Froogle? Flop-a-roogle? Plop-a-flop-roogle? One of those "numbers" that said, "Oh ebay is in trouble now! Fallooga-Roogle is a comin!" "Wha... Wha... Whaaaaaa...." LOL.
eBay's a smart company, a very very smart company. If they'd went retail like Mammazon I've no doubt they'd crushed all comers too.
So really now this new mainstreaming with Big Retail and well even some others caught with their "knickers" down during Covid's early years have sorta one might say "Come to Google." For ages and ages Google tried all forms of which-amma-google to try be at the forefront or even someplace in better half of the top 10 LOL. Now, its come to them because of that mainstreamings.
As I've said before (and before... before... before <---- BEFORE!) NOW every eBay seller is competing "For the Dollar" (qualified spending traffic) against the BIG BOYS as the big boys keep offering outstanding bargains for the consumer traffic and dollars. Every single seller here competes against Walmart, Macy's, Kohls and this list goes on and on and on... JUST as if they had a brick and mortar store having to compete for the traffic and the dollars.
It doesnt matter if "I" think, "Oh no! No way! Who carries old PC software and games that are large merchandisers?" Answer: NOT A SINGLE ONE ANYPLACE IN THE WORLD! A slice of pickle to go atop a burger by request has more relevance than anything I have (I might cry... hold on... ok back).
But the fact is even with my "Dinosaurous-Ware" I now have to compete against Walmart and Macy's because folks spend money there and not with my plethora of PC Prehistoric Paramecium.
Got's be careful these daze! "Hey you know this comes on a floppy disk right?" ---> "WHAT DID YOU CALL ME!!!? SAY IT AGAIN I'll BURN YA' DOWN WHERE YA' STAND!" (LOL now I'm crying in laughter).
But hey in all seriousnessness thats the new reality. The Big Boys have mainstreamed and its all fight for traffic and fight for the dollar and each of us are in that fray. Its as if eBay is this HUGE market yet on the other side of the street stands all these gigantic retailers and some even not so gigantic. Customers shop varied ways...
"Oh look honey! Icewind Dale! I played that before we had kids and NO, NO MORE KIDS!"
"Well isn't that special dear... We're here to get bargains on shoes not for you to relive you're past!"
"Oh... Yes dear, oh... Yeah, our PC doesnt even have a CDROM drive."
"Well good for that! These shoe prices are ridiculous, lets go across the street to Walmart and Kohls. We should have went there right from word go instead of spending time here whilst you fondle the Icewind Dale box you can't even play."
"Well I'd like to buy it just for nostalgia purpo..."
"Oh shut up! Shoes! SHOES! SHOES! SHOES! You wanted kids! DEAL WITH IT!"
But there you have it complete with truth, detail and role-play... Its all changed and the eCommerce market has come to Google versus the years of endless, fruitless pursuit they engaged for ages.
01-03-2024 11:11 AM
Easy enough to base measure albeit might be skewed.
Look at your page view breakdown, how much is organic and not. The not is likely Google more so than any other external aggregator unless you use social media in which case, cant tell you unless you do server forwarding and can then track it.
Me, 30% of page views are google, no doubt about it and since I know a good bit of software/web engineering I also know how to Target search engines. Not to be "Goosie!" but 99% of people dont even understand a basic of the Internet such as "State" vs "Stateless" more or less how achieve decent rank in a search engine be that their own site or a hosted platform. This is for example why people buy "Plugins" for their website towards Search Engine Optimization (SEO) throwing money out the window as said Plugin's are generalized, so yea, 20% better ranking with all this content, and 60% with these few trinkets of pages. If they'd simply learn and create the content so indexes best and proper, get far far far better results.
01-03-2024 11:24 AM
@adkhighker wrote:I never use google to find eBay listings either, at least not initially when I'm searching, especially if I'm looking to buy something. OTOH, I sometimes have inadvertently come across eBay listings when researching something I have that I'm getting ready to sell, especially if I do a google image search on something. Even then, I always go to eBay's sold listings first, then eBay's present listings. Then if I can't find it in those searches, I try to find it on google. I highly doubt anyone searching to buy something on eBay would need to go to google to find it.
You're a seller, eBay is your natural place. Consumers are not sellers. eBay has clearly significant organic traffic or they'd been gone long ago just as Mammazon does. But a whole lot of people do search through Google or other price compare aggregators. How many of those aggregators have eBay results and not, who knows? Bot blockage have creamed some or many and many an operation wants affiliate money for delivering qualified purchasing traffic.
I tend to shop in store more so than online, my lady, exact opposite. Thus I go direct to say Harbor Freight, Lowes or Kohls website, see if I want, if so, over to the store... I LOATH shopping on my cellphone yet now 9 in 10 online shoppers are using their cellphones to shop. My lady starts at Google EVERY SINGLE TIME and she's not unique... At camp quite a few folks with different interests be that Vinyl Records, Little Statues, on and on and most start at Google... Talk into the phone what they are seeking and thats Google, its that simple.
I've said time and again eBay might consider a voice stepped search as that is EASY for the consumer and IS the future as cellphone "Typing" will continue to wane. Most everyone I see when it comes to their cellphone is "Talking a search" to Google.
01-03-2024 11:54 AM
@adkhighker wrote:I never use google to find eBay listings either, at least not initially when I'm searching, especially if I'm looking to buy something. OTOH, I sometimes have inadvertently come across eBay listings when researching something I have that I'm getting ready to sell, especially if I do a google image search on something. Even then, I always go to eBay's sold listings first, then eBay's present listings. Then if I can't find it in those searches, I try to find it on google. I highly doubt anyone searching to buy something on eBay would need to go to google to find it.
I always go to Google to find Ebay listings.
I can do a search on Ebay and maybe find a couple items or none, then do the same search on Google and find all kinds of Ebay listings for the item.
01-03-2024 12:30 PM
@kensgiftshop I have the same experience.... Its been happening all day today as usual. I do think it depends on what we are searching for though. I have been having slightly more success with later model car parts but anything vintage- ebay just has no interest in showing us. The algo is just not set up to show people what they put in the box and with more unique items it gets worse because the algorithms are forcing PL even though though they dont match the search criteria
01-04-2024 04:44 AM
I agree with most of what you are saying, I do the same, But there is only so far you can go & customers are not going to keep paying more & more, You can price yourself right out of business.I don't work for nothing either.
01-04-2024 04:53 AM - edited 01-04-2024 04:54 AM
@valueaddedresource wrote:@siamjane8 I've been seeing some speculation going around with some YouTubers about this and honestly, some of what I've seen strikes me as clickbait fear mongering more than anything.
I've seen some claim in the future Offsite Cost Per Click Ads will be the only way to get any visibility for your eBay items on Google - not making any distinction between organic and paid visibility - and that's just not true.
The vast majority of eBay's traffic is organic (in the past I believe they've said something like 80%+). Here's what Jamie said on the most recent earnings call when asked about competition from Temu and Shein.
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4648867-ebay-inc-ebay-q3-2023-earnings-call-transcript
Yeah. No, I don't think it's in particular any specific other competitive thing. Like your question on Temu, we’ve not seen a significant impact from Temu or Shein on our business. When we look at our cross-border trade as Steve talked about, it continues to remain healthy. We believe that's because of our differentiated strategy and our approach.
If you remember, we've been talking about this for a while. We've been strategically moving away from low quality, low ASP items, and that hasn't been a focus for us for years.
I think the other big difference for our platform, Ross, is that we’re – a vast, vast majority of our traffic is organic. So I think as others are implicated by kind of the paid search or other marketing spend out there in the market, we're less so and more resilient, just because so much of our traffic is driven organically on the platform.
While there may be fluctuations and changes coming this year that could impact organic performance, Google is not going to suddenly stop organically indexing almost 2 Billion listing URLs and eBay is not going to block Google crawlers to prevent them from indexing those pages.
Bottom line, I do not believe there is any scenario where pay per click advertising will be the only way for your items to be visible and discoverable on Google, period.
Here you go, I found a quote with some numbers from Jamie at a Morgan Stanley investors conference in March 2023.
"One of the great benefits of eBay is that 90% of our traffic is either organic or free. So, we only pay for 10% of our traffic."
90%! Does anyone seriously think eBay would jeopardize that just to try to force some percentage of sellers to adopt cost per click Offsite Ads?
That would pretty much instantly crash the entire business, not to mention open them up to multi-billion dollar shareholder lawsuits for a massive breach of fiduciary duty.
01-04-2024 05:43 AM - edited 01-04-2024 05:47 AM
@valueaddedresource Thanks for your posts on this thread, as you saved me from saying basically the same thing (although I would not have said it as well).
While I agree with your conclusions, I do wonder a bit about that organic traffic. (And I'm surprised to see 90% here, I thought Jamie was using 80% or 80 plus....but, no matter,) Seems to me, years ago it was north of 90%.
But a couple questions to mull over:
1. If this "traffic" includes (as I believe it does) ALL traffic to ebay, then it is worth remembering that a percentage of that traffic....MAYBE a considerable percentage...is just people like me, coming to ebay to list or to research , not to buy. And it isn't only ebay sellers who use the site to research...many sellers from other sites use ebay primarily as a research tool to identify and price their inventory. So one wonders how much of that traffic actually converts to sales? Of all conversions on the site, what percentage flow from organic and what percentage from paid ads? (It would be interesting at this point to ask the same question about (seller) paid and organic listings and conversions ON site as well)
2. Has overall traffic been declining or increasing? (90% is an impressive number, but it is less impressive if overall traffic has been progressively declining.) IF traffic has been declining, and if 90% has been roughly consistent, doesn't that make the case for MORE, not LESS, paid advertising to reverse the decline (IF the company WANTS to reverse the decline)....because it would suggest that overall traffic growth will come only from increased marketing.
3. Which brings us round to an overarching question: does ebay WANT to increase overall traffic, or does ebay only want to increase SELECT traffic ("enthusiast buyers" in the "Focus categories"). If the latter, then it probably stands to reason that the 10 or 20% of traffic ebay is in some way paying for is almost exclusively that targeted traffic, which does not bode well for those of us who seller in non focus categories. This explains the lack of a Holiday Marketing Campaign under this CEO, because such a campaign, by its very nature, is broadly aimed at even non-enthusiast buyers.
01-04-2024 06:46 AM
@my-cottage-books-and-antiques those are all great questions! You're absolutely right that direct traffic factors in to the "organic and free" stats that Jamie has put out there.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen any stats directly from eBay that breaks that down. We can look at sites like SimilarWeb, but I was reluctant to post that info here simply because in my personal experience their stats are not always reliable and people far too often interpret them as hard numbers rather than estimates and extrapolations from public data that may or may not accurately reflect the real numbers.
But with that caveat in mind that - for June - November 2023, SimilarWeb puts it at ~46% direct, ~39% organic, ~5% paid search, and the rest split between email, referrals, social (some of which is probably paid advertising) and display ads.
Even with those numbers, I don't see any reason to panic or to think that eBay is going to make it so the *only* way to get visibility on Google is Offsite CPC ads.
A.) The 46% direct traffic is pretty good news for sellers who would prefer not to participate in any offsite paid advertising, though like you said it's difficult to analyze what it really means without having conversion metrics to look at as well.
B.) Even if the organic search is only ~40%, that's still a huge amount of traffic and I still stand by everything I previously said about not believing eBay would intentionally kill that off just to try to force sellers to use CPC ads. I've seen some people across YouTube and social media suggesting that is eBay's "end game" with Offsite Ads and to me that is just absolutely ridiculous.
Your third point is exactly why I think we will see "free" (paid entirely by eBay) inclusion in Google Ads continue to dwindle if not die out completely for most sellers and Promoted Listings Standard External will likely become much more targeted/selective on placements with preference going to key vertical focus category products and non-focus vertical sellers likely seeing a ratcheting up of ad rates to maintain the same levels of external promotion they have received previously.
I absolutely believe there are changes coming this year to eBay Ads that sellers should be paying attention to and that trying to get sellers into the cost per click ad model both on and off site is definitely something eBay wants to do.
Basically my take is eBay's plan is to make CPC something that is "in addition to" existing options (while of course nudging sellers to increasingly move in that direction), but I see zero evidence or even logical reason that eBay would block or shut off external organic visibility to do it.
01-04-2024 07:19 AM
"Basically my take is eBay's plan is to make CPC something that is "in addition to" existing options (while of course nudging sellers to increasingly move in that direction), but I see zero evidence or even logical reason that eBay would block or shut off external organic visibility to do it."
I would make a similar argument for onsite ads: Unlike some, I don't believe ebay is actively blocking organic traffic to my listings. It may seem that way, but low traffic and views is likely caused by the simple fact that promoted listings do indeed get more traffic, and the more people promoting, the more likely their items will be seen before my unpromoted items. Of course, ebay is going to push me to promote, in part because of the added revenue the PLS fees generate, but also because ebay is convinced that PLS increases overall sales velocity, a desirable goal for ebay whether or not they collect a PLS.
Promoted Listings is not the ebay killer people think it is. Just one example of something that IS hurting ebay:
“....68% of Gen Z consumers searched for products on social platforms, while 22% eventually completed a purchase, the highest shopping rate on social media among all generations....
Instagram and TikTok are the go-to social networks for browsing and purchasing products. with clothing, apparel and beauty products being the most sought-after,” PYMNTS wrote last month. “Additionally, the study reveals that over 40% of this generation prefer using Instagram or TikTok over Google to explore brands..."
And yet ebay, per the perhaps not entirely reliable stats we see in your post, gets only 4.78% of its traffic from social media (some of which includes pair partnerships, etc)
Another good question about ebay's organic traffic: what are the demographics? What percentage is Boomers, what percentage is younger, etc? I suspect it skews heavily in favor of an older generation, many of whom are now downsizing rather than buying.
ebay's secret weapon in all this could have been its seller base, but ebay spent years (not just the current CEO) antagonizing a hefty swath of that base, so I think only a small percentage of ebay sellers can be considered "enthusiast sellers" who would feel excited about helping the company grow and compete.
Under current management, it is hard for me to envision a path forward for ebay other than downsizing into more of a boutique site...a large site and a profitable (for ebay) site, but still a much more limited site than at present.
01-04-2024 07:56 AM
@my-cottage-books-and-antiques wrote:"Basically my take is eBay's plan is to make CPC something that is "in addition to" existing options (while of course nudging sellers to increasingly move in that direction), but I see zero evidence or even logical reason that eBay would block or shut off external organic visibility to do it."
I would make a similar argument for onsite ads: Unlike some, I don't believe ebay is actively blocking organic traffic to my listings. It may seem that way, but low traffic and views is likely caused by the simple fact that promoted listings do indeed get more traffic, and the more people promoting, the more likely their items will be seen before my unpromoted items. Of course, ebay is going to push me to promote, in part because of the added revenue the PLS fees generate, but also because ebay is convinced that PLS increases overall sales velocity, a desirable goal for ebay whether or not they collect a PLS.
Promoted Listings is not the ebay killer people think it is. Just one example of something that IS hurting ebay:
“....68% of Gen Z consumers searched for products on social platforms, while 22% eventually completed a purchase, the highest shopping rate on social media among all generations....
Instagram and TikTok are the go-to social networks for browsing and purchasing products. with clothing, apparel and beauty products being the most sought-after,” PYMNTS wrote last month. “Additionally, the study reveals that over 40% of this generation prefer using Instagram or TikTok over Google to explore brands..."
And yet ebay, per the perhaps not entirely reliable stats we see in your post, gets only 4.78% of its traffic from social media (some of which includes pair partnerships, etc)
Another good question about ebay's organic traffic: what are the demographics? What percentage is Boomers, what percentage is younger, etc? I suspect it skews heavily in favor of an older generation, many of whom are now downsizing rather than buying.
ebay's secret weapon in all this could have been its seller base, but ebay spent years (not just the current CEO) antagonizing a hefty swath of that base, so I think only a small percentage of ebay sellers can be considered "enthusiast sellers" who would feel excited about helping the company grow and compete.
Under current management, it is hard for me to envision a path forward for ebay other than downsizing into more of a boutique site...a large site and a profitable (for ebay) site, but still a much more limited site than at present.
Social Media is the big comer but at the same time is the most danger laden for sellers and consumers. For example just before the holiday there were ad's floating around popular social media citing Adobe System, Big Lots and others that were all fake. For example the Big Lots one led to a site that looked and felt in every aspect like Big Lots offering these insane Black Friday etc deals... All fake and HORDES of people bought in, like eBikes for $79, just unbelievable.
Social media is looking at being regulated all over the world... Its one of sole reasons Musk picked up Twitter to fully open its doors. So there exists a far more uncontrolled environment and thus should regulatory measures come to the table, well, now there is a MUCH larger segment of people on that platform alone to bark at it.
Social media however for sellers such as here can be a real up and down scenario. Yeah you can get a great deal of activity but with the good you have to know that you're gonna get the bad too. The bad can also spread like a wildfire.
When I was speaking with my ex (politician) scant weeks back and she was telling me about "Friendly Fraud" statistics the lions share by far is Gen Z and they dont care. Literally, anonymous polling was done of thousands of Gen Z people and a huge swath of them admitted to defrauding with online and not purchases and that they don't feel anything badly about it all even though they know its wrong.
01-04-2024 08:37 AM - edited 01-04-2024 08:41 AM
I'm willing to bet that 10% of paid traffic is for their focus categories. As a seller in one of their focus categories I have benefitted from it. I think eBay has figured out they can't be everything to everyone and decided to focus on the categories that are growing.
Like I have mentioned here before I was luncheon at the National Sports Collectibles convention a few years back when the speaker was Joe Orlando then CEO of Collectors Universe. The are once of the largest companies grading and verifying collectibles. He mentioned he goes to all kind of major conventions for various collectibles as part of his job. He indicated that when he goes to the big coin, stamp, post cards, and antique shows he's noticed most of the dealers and attendees are old with grey hair because young people in most cases are not into collecting as much. Joe indicated that the National Sports collectors convention, Sneaker Con, and Comic Con are the ones he's attended that still get a lot of young attendees. I'm sure this is why you see Ebay setting up a big booth and be a major sponsor every year at The National Sports Collectors Convention and Comic Con in San Diego. Ebay wants to spend the promotional dollars on categories that are still growing. If there are no young collectors to replace the dying old collectors demand and values will go down.