Ebay has allowed us to be DEFRAUDED 4 times in the last 30 days - each time protecting the SCAMMER!

[westextelpyc]

It is sad what Ebay has become, we are a seller of 18 years with 100% feedback over 2000+ reviews, and it seems blatantly obvious that instead of looking out for our best interest, Ebay is more concerned with protecting FRAUDSTERS and SCAMMERS!

In the past 30 days on now 4 different occasions, a buy with an Ebay account opened less than a month has purchased out Hot Tub Supplies.  Once the item was receieved, the SCAMMER made FRADULENT CLAIMS to open a RETURN.  Once the return was in fact approved, the SCAMMER returned WORTHLESS JUNK, one time was a PIECE OF PAPER another time was PIECES OF PLASTICS.

Each time we received these items, we photographed everything, pictures of the unopened return showing the return tracking # and then pictures of us opening the item and then pictures of the contents.

Now in 2 of the 4 cases Ebay has denied our reimbursement claims because "somehow" we didn't prove that the "PIECE OF PAPER" sent to us, was not a hot tub product and we did not prove that it was sent by a SCAMMER.

At this point, we will have no choice but after 18 YEARS we will be REMOVING OUR PRODUCTS from Ebay.  WHAT A TOTAL SHAME!!!

[westextelpyc]

So taking photos of all sides of a dated parcel with the tracking # clearly visible and showing it has

a) not opened and b) no where near the dimension that could hold a proper return, is not evidence?

If that is not evidence given our track record as mentioned vs a 2 week old account, then you are correct, there is a systematic problem here and hence we will stop selling here.

[stainlessenginecovers]

Selling here is still WAY better than the typical 'Brick/Mortar' Store, where 'shrink' (loss product due to theft, receiving errors etc.) is typically 2 to 10 % of sales. 

Sell $100,000 a year, expect $200 to $10000 in 'lost product' come inventory time. 

If it is LESS than that here, you are still ahead of the game. When it becomes more, then contemplate raising prices a tad to cover.

It IS amazing that the items you are selling (hot tub parts) would be interesting to thieves. Curious, was the items being shipped to the same general area (within 100 miles of each other?)- possibly an upset customer or the competition? Just not typical of something that could be 'turned into' cash easily, as is typical with Electronics & Fashion. 

[mam98031]

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@westextelpyc wrote:

So taking photos of all sides of a dated parcel with the tracking # clearly visible and showing it has

a) not opened and b) no where near the dimension that could hold a proper return, is not evidence?

If that is not evidence given our track record as mentioned vs a 2 week old account, then you are correct, there is a systematic problem here and hence we will stop selling here.

---

Ebay has never taken that as evidence.  

Look you can take my advice or ignore it, it is up to you.  I was just trying to help you get your money back.

I wish you well, whatever you decide.

[fbusoni]

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@wmsakalaucks wrote:

There comes a point though that a seller with over 5000 sales and a top ranking needs to be believed over someone who just opened an account in order to scam sellers.  Needs to report this to Postal inspectors for a criminal case.

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With each passing day, seller-buyer disputes increasingly are being arbitrated here on eBay by "magical" artificial intelligence.  

I remember a time here when a seller could contact a rational, sentient human being and there would at least be the possibility of redress.  

Unfortunately for us, artificial intelligence does not make judgment calls.  

[mam98031]

What makes you believe that INADs are being determined by AI.  

Appeals of any claim is NOT processed by AI.  A real person handles those.

[fbusoni]

 

@mam98031 wrote:

What makes you believe that INADs are being determined by AI.  

Appeals of any claim is NOT processed by AI.  A real person handles those.

---

I should have been more precise in my original post.

I'm referring to an idea, a concept (the "need to be believed").

As far as INADs go, I have no doubt whatsoever that in due course, those will in fact be handled almost exclusively by computers, if many are not being so handled already.   I imagine that there are at least tens of thousands of INADs daily.  That's a lot of people to pay.  

Not only would it be relatively easy to program; taking the human element out of resolving INADs would put the burden increasingly on the seller, which is consonant with what I perceive to be a general trend on the platform to tighten up seller standards.  

Unfortunately, reputable sellers like the OP inevitably will get caught in the crossfire.   I expect that I will too.  

It's a matter of time before any one of us gets unfairly whacked, isn't it?

[mam98031]

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@fbusoni wrote:

 

@mam98031 wrote:

What makes you believe that INADs are being determined by AI.  

Appeals of any claim is NOT processed by AI.  A real person handles those.

---

I should have been more precise in my original post.

I'm referring to an idea, a concept (the "need to be believed").

As far as INADs go, I have no doubt whatsoever that in due course, those will in fact be handled by almost exclusively by computers, if many are not being so handled already.   I imagine that there are at least tens of thousands of INADs daily.  That's a lot of people to pay.

Not only would it be relatively easy to program; taking the human element out of resolving INADs would put the burden increasingly on the seller, which is consonant with what I perceive to be a general trend on the platform to tighten up seller standards.  

Unfortunately, reputable sellers like the OP inevitably will get caught in the crossfire.   I expect that I will too.  

It's a matter of time before any one of us gets unfairly whacked, isn't it?

---

As I tried to explain, AI is not arbitrating INADs.  As a group, the Mentor's have asked Ebay that very questions and we have repeatedly been told no.  But you of course have the right to believe whatever works for you.

The basic functions of a claim are very likely automatic per the rules that govern the policy.  But as to arbitrating a claim, that at least is still with a real human.  Of course things change all the time, but I don't think this one is changing anytime soon.

[fbusoni]

---

@mam98031 wrote:

---

@fbusoni wrote:

 

@mam98031 wrote:

What makes you believe that INADs are being determined by AI.  

Appeals of any claim is NOT processed by AI.  A real person handles those.

---

I should have been more precise in my original post.

I'm referring to an idea, a concept (the "need to be believed").

As far as INADs go, I have no doubt whatsoever that in due course, those will in fact be handled by almost exclusively by computers, if many are not being so handled already.   I imagine that there are at least tens of thousands of INADs daily.  That's a lot of people to pay.

Not only would it be relatively easy to program; taking the human element out of resolving INADs would put the burden increasingly on the seller, which is consonant with what I perceive to be a general trend on the platform to tighten up seller standards.  

Unfortunately, reputable sellers like the OP inevitably will get caught in the crossfire.   I expect that I will too.  

It's a matter of time before any one of us gets unfairly whacked, isn't it?

---

As I tried to explain, AI is not arbitrating INADs.  As a group, the Mentor's have asked Ebay that very questions and we have repeatedly been told no.  But you of course have the right to believe whatever works for you.

The basic functions of a claim are very likely automatic per the rules that govern the policy.  But as to arbitrating a claim, that at least is still with a real human.  Of course things change all the time, but I don't think this one is changing anytime soon.

---

Madam, I too have ingested the eBay Kool Aid.  Hundreds of gallons of it over a quarter century, in fact.

But I have retained an ability to analyze and synthesize bits of information from disparate sources and come to independent conclusions.  

And I would never, ever relinquish my freedom to make judgments to an authority as dubious as that which runs this place.

[westextelpyc]

Ebays latest support suggestion to me :

have you tried reaching out to the buyer (SCAMMER) to tell them instead of a hot tub product, they returned a PIECE OF FOLDED PAPER and suggest they return the correct product? (Geez, why didn't we think of that)

The ineptitude and incompetence is beyond. 

[fbusoni]

@westextelpyc 

Would you mind sharing a screenshot or a verbatim copy of that correspondence?

I'd like to see if we can parse it sufficiently to determine whether it was computer generated.

Thanks much.

[westextelpyc]

The opening paragraph just lists the item name and number which I don't feel like redacting but this is the next paragraph :

For us to get this resolved I still suggest for you to contact the buyer for them to ship the correct item back as they might mistakenly shipped the incorrect item. Aside from that we encourage you to file a report against them, that is the best way for our back office to review their account and check if this behavior was made to multiple sellers. Once the review was done our back office will issue a the most applicable sanction to the buyer in accordance to their violation.

[fbusoni]

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@westextelpyc wrote:

The opening paragraph just lists the item name and number which I don't feel like redacting but this is the next paragraph :

For us to get this resolved I still suggest for you to contact the buyer for them to ship the correct item back as they might mistakenly shipped the incorrect item. Aside from that we encourage you to file a report against them, that is the best way for our back office to review their account and check if this behavior was made to multiple sellers. Once the review was done our back office will issue a the most applicable sanction to the buyer in accordance to their violation.

---

Thank you.  Very revealing... there is no reference to redress for you, only to the possibility of sanctions against the buyer "in accordance to their violation" -- a stilted phase (along with poor grammar more generally) that suggests a substandard command of the English language.   

If these are the folks "arbitrating" INAD claims, a full on switch to AI might be a refreshing change.

[vintagecraze50]

WHAT IS REALLY interesting about these scammers is they are taking a risk on here as well. You do know that some of these folks have an IQ OF ABOUT 20. Many may get caught with the right reporting. First, you must try to appeal these cases with ebay by giving them every piece of evidence you can including weights of the parcel you sent weight of parcel returned all AVAILABLE in the postal records. It is lack of pro activity on sellers part to ignore these blatant mail fraud scams. You can report these people for mail fraud with the postal service. 

[vintagecraze50]

Wait. You said Ebay sided with you on 2 of the 4 cases? That’s pretty good.

[westextelpyc]

Yea totally ridiculous the same exact info was good on appeal for 2 cases but not the other. The last one chaps me the most where the guy took a piece of paper out of a kids workbook, folded it and mailed in a folded envelope, the entire "return" is 1/8" thick (of course I paid for the return shipping also) but somehow this might have been a "mistake".

I truly blame AMZ for this, as they set the tone teaching SCAMMERS and other platforms that the "customer" is to receive a refund no matter what hiw obvious the SCAM is because there is a "rule made for the exemption" not the other way around.