Buyer Using Freight Forwarder Filed a SNAD

[lovethehype]

Hello

I just recently sold a computer part earlier this month through eBay. The payment was received but I noticed that the address was a freight forwarder in Delaware. The item was shipped and successfully delivered

However, two days ago the buyer filed a SNAD case claiming the box was empty. I went ahead and contacted the freight forwarder directly and they have responded back to me, confirming that this package was indeed forwarded to the buyer. 

From my understanding, ebay's MBG is voided if they use a forwarder. However, I know it's typically hard to prove that a buyer used a forwarder. However, since I have written proof (plus pictures of the parcel from the company), do I have any ground to stand on? Furthermore, what should I do about the return?

[pikabo-icu]

---

@katzrul15 wrote:

Sellers who cancel transactions may see it impact their selling performance metrics. Defects are not removable in situations where the seller wants to back out due to the location of the buyer's address and they should not use "Issue with buyer's address" to circumvent this, as this would be considered abuse of the cancellation process. 

Do not even know what to say.  With all the known issues and fraud surrounding several addys in Delaware, etc. -

---

Seems to me buyer gets to set the terms to over ride a seller's preference to NOT ship internationally. 

There is NO WAY to avoid international shipping if buyer is determined to buy your item then. 

This is just wrong.. As a seller if I want to sell & ship to US only, I should be able to do that..

These freight forwarders & reshippers are rife with issues- some more so than others but I would rather not take the risk with any of them. 

Perhaps eBay doesn't understand that with PP we could block foreign payments with MP we can not..

This is something that should be addressed.. Maybe via the payment processor or eBay I don't know but it needs to be considered.. 

[katzrul15]

@pikabo-icu 

I concur 1000%.  I had 3 huge messes with Delaware freight-forwarder addresses.  And a recent one in CA.

As a Seller, we should be able to mitigate the risk associated with these transactions if you so choose.  If it is a lower dollar item, then perhaps.  But a high-dollar item?  No, thank you - I do not want that exposure any longer as the MBG is one-sided to the Buyer only, especially for SNAD.  

[southern*sweet*tea]

Not that I would expect this to happen given what I sell, but I have free returns and when a case is opened, the return label is automatically sent. I've shipped to forwarders many times with no issues, BUT, if a case was opened and the return label automatically sent, wouldn't the person on the other end be bound to that label since I offer FREE returns?  Or is there a way they can upload their own, even though mine would be free for them to use? (granted free from the forwarder, but hey, that's where it was shipped to) 

Yes, I recently added GSP and I can't get the block list to work the way I want it so I'll probably just pull it and go back to US only for the time being.

[katzrul15]

The issue is the return label is just to the freight-forwarder and the item, especially if a SNAD, is going to be outside the US with the Buyer.  

If you look at Brittanie's 2 post explanations, it does leave a couple of holes in working to protect the Seller.  And the window for the Seller to respond is going to be short.

[katzrul15]

@southern*sweet*tea 

Based on what you sell, probably not as big an issue as it could be for sellers in other categories or for higher-valued dollar item(s).  E-Bay clearly realized the issue(s) associated with freight-forwarders as they changed the policy regarding these types of orders.

@pikabo-icu  is correct - we used to be able to block payments in Paypal that originated outside the US.  This is a loophole that e-Bay really does need to continue to review and explore better ways to protect Sellers who never wanted the international exposure to begin with.

[southern*sweet*tea]

If I send a free return label to the address that I shipped to, that is what's required of me. I am not responsible for anything once a delivered package leaves that address. Is that not the case now? 

[pikabo-icu]

---

@southern*sweet*tea wrote:

If I send a free return label to the address that I shipped to, that is what's required of me. I am not responsible for anything once a delivered package leaves that address. Is that not the case now? 

---

Yes and no..

There's no short answer as this entire thread is a debate in what the seller coverage is for these forwarded shipments.

The OP's case the INAD was a claim of empty box- this shipment was forwarded..

The MBG clearly states that sellers are covered against this- BUT now unwritten policy says we must get a statement from the freight forwarder or the buyer that the package was indeed forwarded.

If we can get that we are to DENY the INAD claim and upload proof to eBay and they are supposed to close in sellers favor.

Same with INR , same process for protection. I believe just delivery to the US address/forwarding company is good enough. But it's still a little unclear. 

In the case where seller offers returns like you, I believe buyer is responsible to get the item back to the forwarder in the US and you provide the label from there.. SIGH

It's rather complicated and for sellers like me, that don't want to sell internationally, it forces us to do it PERIOD.

There is no way to opt out.. 

[katzrul15]

Based on Brittanie's posts, it appears the onus on a "SNAD" has shifted to where the Seller has to contact e-Bay with documentation that a freight-forwarder scenario exists, BEFORE you initiate the return/address the SNAD.  You probably have automatic for a "return" - a SNAD, e-Bay would engage you as a Seller first? 

Seller has 3 days to respond to the SNAD.  Based on this thread, Brittanie stated the Seller needs to initiate contact to e-Bay CS prior to responding to the SNAD to alert CS there is a freight-forwarder involved with proof of same.  Otherwise (her comments, not mine) it won't be reversed in appeal for the Seller - e-Bay will evoke the MBG for the Buyer.  What is confusing, is you are correct, we ship to where we are told, our label to ship it back is going to be to the freight-forwarder addy. 

In the OP's case, they claim there is nothing to return, the box was empty.  E-Bay typically, would not force a return of an empty box?  Under the MBG, am guessing they side with the Buyer.  

[katzrul15]

@pikabo-icu 

@southern*sweet*tea 

clear as mud

[pikabo-icu]

---

@katzrul15 wrote:

In the OP's case, they claim there is nothing to return, the box was empty.  E-Bay typically, would not force a return of an empty box?  Under the MBG, am guessing they side with the Buyer.  

---

I really hope not..

It's possible the forwarder lost the item, kept it etc...

I do NOT want to be responsible for that.. Not if we can prove it was forwarded- I hope..

UGH This is just a confusing mess.  Clear as mud.. 

[pikabo-icu]

---

@katzrul15 wrote:

@pikabo-icu 

@southern*sweet*tea 

clear as mud

---

OMG I just typed that!!!  ROFL

[katzrul15]

And as I shared up-thread - not every freight-forwarder may give you what e-Bay considers documentation the item was indeed forwarded.  

Does not mean you do not try or ask for it.  But when this practice becomes more commonplace - will these entities cooperate to assist you or protect their client, the buyer?  (btw, I use SC to a freight-forwarder to prove it was indeed delivered there with their 2 zillion other parcels)

[southern*sweet*tea]

I don't give a toot if the package was forwarded or not.

Buyer Joe Smith orders an item with a delivery address of 123 Sesame St, Anytown USA, and that's where I send the package to.  It's delivered. Buyer opens a SNAD - okay, it happens. Ebay automatically sends a prepaid return label for the address 123 Sesame St, Anytown USA.

The buyer has 15 days to get tracking moving on that label. I don't care if they live at 123 Sesame St., Anytown or in Timbuktu.  If it's a freight forwarder, maybe they live there. Maybe they work there. Maybe they live in Timbuktu. Doesn't matter. If that tracking number doesn't show movement within 15 days, the seller should have the case closed in their favor.  It's in black and white.

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/managing-returns-refunds/handle-return-request-seller?id=4115

Either it IS, or it ISN'T. There should be no unwritten rules. Freight forwarder or not, the buyer has 15 days to use the label that I AND EBAY send for them to use. They use it, or they don't. If they don't, there is no refund until I get that package using that label tracking back.

Seems crystal clear to me.

[katzrul15]

@southern*sweet*tea 

Could not agree more.  

From Post 56 (up-thread) from Brittanie (copied/unaltered):

In general, what we'll need is proof that the item was shipped to another location by the buyer. That can come in many forms and since the seller has proof from the carrier it was forwarded, that should be what we need unless something else is going on in the case that we don't know about from the details shared here. For example, if a seller accepts the return before contacting us to provide proof of forwarding, we can't overturn that decision. 

It was then asked for clarity by 2 Posters on the time line and the part about the Seller accepting the return prior to contacting CS:

@a_c_green & @pikabo-icu - Since your questions are similar I'll answer it together.

Generally the only tracking information we'll have is that the package was delivered to the address the buyer provided and we aren't able to verify if it's a forwarder with our current tools. Also, at that point it's delivered to a US address (generally) and it's only when the item is then forwarded on to another address that the item is voided from protection. You'll notice the wording in the policy page says "The item was sent to another address after original delivery". We have to have proof of that second delivery to move forward and currently we don't have a way to automatically detect that (and may not ever be able to, because that shipment happens outside of our site). We don't generally see any 'forwarding' event in the tracking in these types of situations.

I can ask  for a possible update to the help page, but I can't promise that it will be updated, as that team ultimately has the final say on what's on the help pages. 

Proof from the forwarder that the item was shipped somewhere else after initial delivery, does work as proof in this situation.

[southern*sweet*tea]

---

@katzrul15 wrote:

@southern*sweet*tea 

Could not agree more.  

From Post 56 (up-thread) from Brittanie (copied/unaltered):

In general, what we'll need is proof that the item was shipped to another location by the buyer. That can come in many forms and since the seller has proof from the carrier it was forwarded, that should be what we need unless something else is going on in the case that we don't know about from the details shared here. For example, if a seller accepts the return before contacting us to provide proof of forwarding, we can't overturn that decision. 

It was then asked for clarity by 2 Posters on the time line and the part about the Seller accepting the return prior to contacting CS:

@a_c_green & @pikabo-icu - Since your questions are similar I'll answer it together.

Generally the only tracking information we'll have is that the package was delivered to the address the buyer provided and we aren't able to verify if it's a forwarder with our current tools. Also, at that point it's delivered to a US address (generally) and it's only when the item is then forwarded on to another address that the item is voided from protection. You'll notice the wording in the policy page says "The item was sent to another address after original delivery". We have to have proof of that second delivery to move forward and currently we don't have a way to automatically detect that (and may not ever be able to, because that shipment happens outside of our site). We don't generally see any 'forwarding' event in the tracking in these types of situations.

I can ask  for a possible update to the help page, but I can't promise that it will be updated, as that team ultimately has the final say on what's on the help pages. 

Proof from the forwarder that the item was shipped somewhere else after initial delivery, does work as proof in this situation.

---

So there it is. Send the return label to the original address. If the buyer cannot/does not use it, there's the proof.  SNAD labels are free for the buyer no matter what kind of seller they buy from - free returns or no returns - so the buyer has no valid reason not to use the label. Even if the street address is wrong, the label will still be good anywhere in the US.  It's USPS return label postage good anywhere in the United States. The only address that matters on the label is MINE.

Wait,  buyer says they can't use the label because they're in Timbuktu... Well, there's your proof.  There is zero reason a buyer in the US cannot use the return label I send them...unless that buyer is NOT in the US.