Another Scamming Buyer - Grrrr - They Know How to Work The System

[twk]

I have been on ebay, as a buyer and seller since 1998 and the scammers are getting ridiculous.  I sell antiques and vintage items and take great pains to describe and lots of pictures.

Today I had a case opened against me for a NAD when it is exactly what the seller bought.  It was a teapot, dimensions given, lots of pictures and now seller claims it - get this - only  holds 3 cups!  This is a good size English teapot and holds much more than 3 cups.  Also, the buyer has had since Saturday and just today opens the claim against me.

Fortunately, I had to cancel my first postage label on this because I forgot to add the insurance for $100 and had to do a second one.  I also let the buyer know why I canceled the first label so she KNEW it was fully INSURED.  She claims NO damage to item, just allegedly wrong item but provides no pictures, just verbage on her claim.

I have already talked to Ebay returns on this and the young man tried to close the claim in my favor but it is too soon.  He guarantees I will not lose out as I do not take returns AND it is what she bought.

How should I handle?  Yeah I know I will be advised to just take it back, but I have had far too many cases in the last two years where I eat the shipping and return costs for buyer's remorse....especially since they seem to have learned that to get ALL their money back an item not as described is the way to go.

Hubby and I have been on ebay for a long time and are small time sellers and not equipped for returns due to buyer remorse etc.  In the past we have tried to accommodate but buyers are really misusing the system.  If they just want to return they know they will not get original shipping back and will have to pay for return themselves, BUT if they claim NASD they get it all back.

With increases In shipping this is getting way out of line.

[a_c_green]

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@moo*cow*corner wrote:

Late to the party. Seeing as it's an English teapot, should the seller have expressed the capacity in liters?

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Sure.  1 liter is a little under 34 ounces.  The problem here is that the capacity was not expressed at all.

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@moo*cow*corner wrote:

Good grief! Actual measurements of visible physical attributes should be good enough.

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But, again, they were not. The description gave the height and the width across from handle to tip of spout. The diameter of the pot itself was not given. Even if it was, the volume can vary based on whether it's cylindrical (such as in this case) or more spherical (such as in our own that I pulled out for comparison). The easiest way to describe its capacity is to just fill the thing with water and pour it out into a measuring cup to see how many fluid ounces it holds. Interested buyers can then work out for themselves how many of their own cups can be filled from that pot.

All that aside, it will be interesting to hear whether the same pot comes back, or whether it will be the smaller model that the buyer may be sending in exchange.

[yuzuha]

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@the*dog*ate*my*tablecloth wrote:

I’m a tea drinker AND English and I would have thought cups meant 8 ounces. so you’re wrong about “any Tea Drinker”

Its irrelevant anyway if you didn’t list the volume. 

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Same.  (Well, not the English part, the tea drinker part.)  I drink tea every day; I just checked the tea cups I have and they are all 8 oz ones.  I thought that was the standard size for tea cups as all of the cups/mugs we sell at work are that size or larger save for the espresso cups and the cappuccino mugs.

[moo*cow*corner]

@a_c_green 

With the auto-accept and ebay no longer willing to mediate or even take a look at SNAD's, the point is completely moot. They could say that they expected the thing to hold 5 gallons, and they'd be allowed to return it at the seller's expense. It's still a bogus claim.

The biggest sellers in the category don't describe volumes. I suppose a seller could, but it has no bearing on a case anymore. I've been known to do it, but usually only for glassware tumblers and the like.

If a buyer is concerned about capacity, they can certainly shoot me an ASQ, and I'll gladly hold their hand through the entire transaction, to the bitter end if necessary.

[lasalle38]

agree. Ebay could care less about the seller. It is all about profit and always supports the buyer. Ebay isn't Amazon and much or the items for sale are not new so there is always room for questioning.

[a_c_green]

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@yuzuha wrote:

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@the*dog*ate*my*tablecloth wrote:

I’m a tea drinker AND English and I would have thought cups meant 8 ounces. so you’re wrong about “any Tea Drinker”

Its irrelevant anyway if you didn’t list the volume. 

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Same.  (Well, not the English part, the tea drinker part.)  I drink tea every day; I just checked the tea cups I have and they are all 8 oz ones.  I thought that was the standard size for tea cups as all of the cups/mugs we sell at work are that size or larger save for the espresso cups and the cappuccino mugs.

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Fortunately it's teatime here, I am British, and I have just completed the following Scientific Measurements:

Observations here were made using Tetley black tea. Normally I would be using Earl Grey, but we're out of that, so I was forced to tettle instead. 

The Noritake Whitebrook cup on the left measures 6 ounces for a normal fill. The Mikasa Prelude in the center holds 8 ounces, as does the Woodhill on the right. (Crumpet statistics are for weight, not volume.) Thus, for example, a 36-ounce pot could provide 6 Noritake cups, but only 4½ of the others. A larger pot will have an even bigger discrepancy, depending on the buyer's choice of tea set, and you would have no way of knowing what they would be using. So just give the volume of the pot (along with its external dimensions), and everyone benefits. 

Now please excuse me because my crumpet is going cold.

[be_4101]

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@twk wrote:

Right now I insure everything I send out.  Some of the NASD complaints that have been started against me seem to disappear when I notify them to save all the wrapping paper, box etc. as the item was fully insured by the USPO.  And on expensive items I have them sign for it, which also helps.

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That sure sounds solid. But why didn't your DSAN complaint disappear this time?

[moo*cow*corner]

@a_c_green 

Nice! Have an extra crumpet for me! Those are not on my approved list.

I have no way of knowing what size cups a buyer has. If they are concerned, they can ask me. Otherwise, I'm just giving buyers another arguing point if they want to skate on return shipping.

I've actually had a buyer argue that a 12 oz. tumbler was truly only 10 oz, because if they filled it to the brim, it would spill over when they picked it up to drink. Seriously. I simply rolled my eyes and said return for refund. For some odd reason, they never sent them back.

So, if the manufacturer (or other research source) says it's a 5-cup teapot, that's what I'm going to call it. This particular pattern is an anomaly in that it even has 2 sizes of teapot available. Most have one size, and only if very popular.

We can't even get buyers to read a listing. You think that they are actually going to do any math?

[a_c_green]

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@moo*cow*corner wrote:

Nice! Have an extra crumpet for me! Those are not on my approved list.

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Happy to oblige! Remember that it is easier to seek Forgiveness than Permission. 

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So, if the manufacturer (or other research source) says it's a 5-cup teapot, that's what I'm going to call it. 

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Right... and the problem in this case is that listing 223358858756 doesn't... say... anything... about the number of cups it hold. None. Not in ounces, cups, liters, or any other measurement of volume. I'm just saying that you can fill it with water, pour that out into a measuring cup, see how many ounces you get, and boom, there's your volume number. Buyers with a brain can use that; buyers without a brain will be unaffected. 

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This particular pattern is an anomaly in that it even has 2 sizes of teapot available. Most have one size, and only if very popular.

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Yeah, see, if I knew at listing time that 2 sizes of that design existed, and that they even look similar (I saw the photo showing the two sizes), then I'd go even further out of my way to make sure interested buyers knew which one it was: e.g. the one that holds 48 ounces, or the one that holds only 30 ounces.

[twk]

I just noticed that even the replacement place, while it also gives the height, and they give A number of cups for the pot, they do  not state just what the oz. of those cups are either.

[moo*cow*corner]

@a_c_green 

I get it, I do. I may have described as a larger vs. smaller. I'd also give better than average odds that any serious collector of that pattern knows exactly what's available and what they have. If the seller provided physical linear measurements, it's still a bogus claim.

But ultimately, under the current practices of how sellers are supposed to handle any SNAD, picking at the seller's ad is an exercise in complete futility. It simply doesn't matter.

I have several teapots just sitting around here because I hate packing and shipping them.

[a_c_green]

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@twk wrote:

I just noticed that even the replacement place, while it also gives the height, and they give A number of cups for the pot, they do  not state just what the oz. of those cups are either.

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You're right... I've contacted them for clarification and will post here when I get a reply back. (Their autoreply states 3-5 days, but hopefully it won't be that long...)

[moo*cow*corner]

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@twk wrote:

I just noticed that even the replacement place, while it also gives the height, and they give A number of cups for the pot, they do  not state just what the oz. of those cups are either.

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Correct. And they only do that if multiple sizes of teapots are made in any given pattern. Most patterns only have one teapot, and usually only linear measurements are provided. No cups given. Even then, that place isn't always right. 

There are patterns where cups alone come in 4 sizes or more. None are expressed in capacity. It's way more common with glassware than dinnerware.

[ittybitnot]

I am just posting to the end of the discussion.  

What has been left out from all this talk of cups, ounces, etc. is this:

If the buyer claims SNAD it is a SNAD complaint.  If the buyer is lying it is still  a SNAD complaint/  If the seller said this holds 26 ounces, and buyer files "not as described", it is still a SNAD complaint.  If the seller said it held at least 4 cups, and the buyer claims not as described because it actually held seven, it is still a SNAD complaint.  If the buyer lied and said she got a shoe instead of a teapot, it is still a SNAD complaint the same way if they claim the teapot was actually 5 15/32" high instead of 5 1/2" .  All of the above are "equal" SNAD complaints in the world of ebay.  There is no seller protection for SNAD complaints.  You get the metric ding, and either pay up or suffer additional consequences. 

There is no seller protection from a SNAD complaint, and there is no changing it anymore once it is filed even though the reason may be the most stupid on earth...'the seller said the design was pretty...the design is ugly, NOT AS DESCRIBED'. 

You, as the seller used to be able to call and get this nonsense straightened out.  That is no longer the case.  Once that snad is filed the seller is basically "thrown under the bus"...they of course can control somewhat how much of their body gets crushed by the bus by selecting to refund and let the buyer keep it for free, or funding the return and having to refund even if the product is a used muffin pan (although the muffin pan dude supposedly prevailed). 

You don't volunteer for either of the choices...(like choosing to get a poke in theye OR a poke in the other eye) you will be flattened by the "ebay bus".   Is it still 2 or three cases of "unresolved" dings per year that get you the permanent boot? 

Any buyer now can file a SNAD complaint with a "remorse" reason and prevail in the auto dispute process with CS falling back on the "so sorry, nothing we can do" mantra. 

[little.font.lord.leroy]

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@moo*cow*corner wrote:

@a_c_green 

The biggest sellers in the category don't describe volumes. I suppose a seller could, but it has no bearing on a case anymore. I've been known to do it, but usually only for glassware tumblers and the like.

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When buying tumblers I don't always rely on volume, which can usually be looked up at replacements. But if the dealer doesn't list the size in inches (height, distance across) I pass, no matter how good a deal it is. I am not about to write and ask a seller if they happen to own a ruler and maybe know a 5th grader who can teach them how to use it. And the audacity to think, "if they need to know the size they can always ask". Who buys anything without knowing the size?

A seller who considers it a  hassle  to measure their goods,  and can't be bothered to hold a ruler up to it when they photograph it on the kitchen floor with an cell-phone pointed down,  is likely to forget to mention the chips and then will throw it into a cereal box with paper toweling for a cushion to ship and then call me all sorts of names after I report that the item arrived damaged. I really don't have the time for that kind of hassle, either.

I consider it a blessing when sellers don't list sizes -it tells a defensive shopper far more than it doesn't.

[little.font.lord.leroy]

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@a_c_green wrote:

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Fortunately it's teatime here, I am British, and I have just completed the following Scientific Measurements:

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Do you put marmalade and Marmite on your crumpet? Do Brits really do that? Is marmalade the only thing that makes a smear of Marmite palatable?  No, I'm not going to try it !