Managed payments and chargebacks

[spreadlovelikefire]

I was required to transfer over to managed payments in late July.  I have already received my 3rd dispute for either item not received and/or unauthorized transaction.  My percentage is higher than it ever was with PayPal, for the 15 years I’ve sold.  Has anyone else who has managed payments experiencing anything similar?  I have $200 on hold now while tracking shows in all cases that the items were delivered.  At least PayPal wouldn’t hold my money when cases were opened but I never did have 3 of them at the same time either.  

[spreadlovelikefire]

Here is a screen shot of the original email from eBay for the payment dispute for clarification.  This was open through their financial institution.  

[mam98031]

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@spreadlovelikefire wrote:

It's not an INAD.  It's a chargeback.  An INAD through ebay would allow for a label to be purchased for a return, this is not that.  I have no way of getting the item back.  Please refer to the wording under which I have circled.  This is a payment dispute with a credit card, not an INAD with eBay.  They are handled much different.  Ebay has no way of requiring them to ship it back at all with these.  

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OK, I see your point.  So if this is a chargeback it is NOT also an INAD.  It can't be both.

So if we run with what it says under the circled area and conclude it is a chargeback, it brings us back to the entry on Oct. 1st saying you accepted the dispute and allowed the refund.  So no return of the item is likely at this point unless you have an honest buyer involved.

You are correct, unless your buyer willingly returns it you have no way of getting the item back when you accept the chargeback and OK the refund.

[mam98031]

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@spreadlovelikefire wrote:

Here is a screen shot of the original email from eBay for the payment dispute for clarification.  This was open through their financial institution.  

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Yep, that's a chargeback but not an INAD.

[spreadlovelikefire]

I'm saying INAD because if you read the reason for the chargeback that is what it says.  The customer was able to open it as an item not as described chargeback.  And I was informed by eBay that that is the only chargeback reason that is not covered by seller protection.  So there is no recourse at all.  I had one of these with paypal opened a few years ago and paypal did require the item to be returned, eBay does not have that ability.  

[spreadlovelikefire]

[dede394]

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@spreadlovelikefire wrote:

I am not using INAD and chargeback interchangeably.

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We understand this fine. Sorry you're dealing with this.

1. And we know that if it's a chargeback for INR or SNAD, eBay says

- Please respond to this dispute

for example if the buyer selected

- Reason Code 53 Goods Not as Described or Defective

to file a chargeback for SNAD.

2. Otherwise, eBay will say

- You have a return request

for example if it's SNAD.

Previously, when we accepted PayPal payments directly, PayPal would require proof that the item was returned. But now with Management Payouts, PayPal can no longer require that proof, since eBay instead is now the seller accepting payment, and PayPal cannot see who is the actual seller anymore.

So you cannot get the item back, and you're forced to just refund. As eBay used to say after the case is closed, eBay now will repeat that you can work directly with the buyer to get your item back.

[mam98031]

@dede394 

While clearly the OP has an issue that they want and need to resolve and they are out the product in which this buyer appears to still have, it is important to understand that a buyer can NOT go to their CCC and file an INR or a SNAD/INAD.  

When going directly to their CCC they are opening a Chargeback, no matter the reason they give, it is a Chargeback subject to the MP or PP $20 fee.

The acronyms of INR / INAD / SNAD are commonly used on Ebay to represent the different types of claims a buyer may file IN EBAY.  

If the buyer had of opened an Chargeback and an INAD or INR, Ebay would have auto closed the INAD or INR because they don't allow buyers to open two claims on the same transaction.

While someone opening a Chargeback may use a reason that sounds similar or exactly like a reason for opening a claim in Ebay, it does not create such a claim in Ebay.

[threshold.sales.group]

A credit card dispute can have the same reason as an eBay dispute.  Item not received credit card initiated disputes are clearly covered by managed payments payments seller protection and as long as the seller ships to the address provided with tracking showing delivered eBay MP should protect the seller no matter the eventual outcome between eBay v. credit card company.  That's one of the OP disputes that should already be a non-issue for them. 

The other credit card initiated item not as described dispute is a total lost cause (unfortunately).   The rules for a credit card item not as described dispute require the cardholder to have made a good faith effort to return the item and get a refund prior to filing the dispute, but there's no accountability in the system.  The credit card will refund and tell the cardholder that the merchant should be allowed to recover the goods at the merchant's  expense, but again there's no accountability.     

[mam98031]

A credit card dispute can have the same reason as an eBay dispute. 

Yes, I agree.  I have said that.

Item not received credit card initiated disputes are clearly covered by managed payments payments seller protection and as long as the seller ships to the address provided with tracking showing delivered eBay MP should protect the seller no matter the eventual outcome between eBay v. credit card company.  That's one of the OP disputes that should already be a non-issue for them. 

Yes if that is the reason for the chargeback.  Makes sense.

The other credit card initiated item not as described dispute is a total lost cause (unfortunately).   The rules for a credit card item not as described dispute require the cardholder to have made a good faith effort to return the item and get a refund prior to filing the dispute, but there's no accountability in the system.  The credit card will refund and tell the cardholder that the merchant should be allowed to recover the goods at the merchant's  expense, but again there's no accountability.     

Yes I agree.  None of what you have said did I disagree with in any post.  What you state here is absolutely correct.

@threshold.sales.group 

[coffeebean832]

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@spreadlovelikefire wrote:

The second one was an item not described charge back, even though it fell within the first 30 days of purchase and I have free returns.  I called customer service and was told I'd never win it.  That I should just accept it and count my losses.  I emailed the buyer after accepting the chargeback and the buyer actually said she made a mistake, that it wasn't my item, it was another one just like it from another seller.  So now I get to refund her for that and have no way of getting my product back.  Paypal at least would require them to return the item, eBay does not.  So the sellers is at a huge loss if that is how the charge back is opened. 

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@spreadlovelikefire- Sorry you're dealing with all this. And you're 100% correct that chargebacks aren't simply chargebacks. They come in many forms such as:

Unauthorized Use

I don't recognize the charge

The item wasn't as described (SNAD)

Item not received (INR)

Regarding the SNAD chargeback, you need to get on the phone with Payments CS and have them view the buyer's message saying they opened the chargeback on the wrong item in error. eBay can use this information to dispute the chargeback- yes, even after you accepted it and agreed to refund. Make sure the CS rep reviews the messages and that eBay uses the information and also stress that eBay uses the information about 30 day free returns to fight for your case. Those funds will remain on hold until the financial institution makes a decision on the dispute. Just because you agreed to refund doesn't mean this won't still turn out in your favor.

If in the end the dispute is found in favor of the buyer you won't be charged $20 because from the get-go you agreed to refund. Should the dispute be found in favor of the buyer then work with the buyer. She already admitted to the error so she may be amenable to re-paying. Send an invoice through PayPal if it comes down to that.

[spreadlovelikefire]

Just a quick update, I did call eBay again and was told there is nothing they can do because they only speak to their financial institution and they have no way of submitting any information once it's sent over.  Even if the buyer says they opened it in error, like mine did.  I was told that the only way I can try and get my money back is by sending them an invoice through paypal to repay.  Which I did but they didn't pay.  So I'm sol.  

[coffeebean832]

@spreadlovelikefire- Let us know what the outcome is once the chargeback decision is made. I think you have good support to win the SNAD chargeback and would like to know if it ultimately works out in your favor.

[dede394]

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@spreadlovelikefire wrote:

Just a quick update, I did call eBay again and was told there is nothing they can do because they only speak to their financial institution and they have no way of submitting any information once it's sent over.

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That's because any documents you send over has to go back up the chain:

1. You send your documents to eBay.

2. eBay sends your documents to Adyen.

3. Adyen sends your documents to PayPal.

4 PayPal sends your documents to to the card.

Count it: How may layers does Managed Payments add?

[coffeebean832]

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@spreadlovelikefire wrote:

Just a quick update, I did call eBay again and was told there is nothing they can do because they only speak to their financial institution and they have no way of submitting any information once it's sent over.  Even if the buyer says they opened it in error, like mine did.  I was told that the only way I can try and get my money back is by sending them an invoice through paypal to repay.  Which I did but they didn't pay.  So I'm sol.  

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Sorry- this post wasn't displaying when I posted earlier. I did wonder whether or no eBay could add information after the fact. At least now you know to get all that together before you respond to the chargeback so you can make sure eBay sends it all over when they first contact the financial institution.

As for the PayPal invoice- you sent it too early. Wait until the chargeback is closed and the buyer is refunded- THEN invoice the buyer. At this point the chargeback is still pending and the buyer hasn't been refunded yet so they're not going to re-pay.

[dede394]

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@dede394 wrote:

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@spreadlovelikefire wrote:

Just a quick update, I did call eBay again and was told there is nothing they can do because they only speak to their financial institution and they have no way of submitting any information once it's sent over.

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That's because any documents you send over has to go back up the chain:

1. You send your documents to eBay.

2. eBay sends your documents to Adyen.

3. Adyen sends your documents to PayPal.

4 PayPal sends your documents to to the card.

Count it: How may layers does Managed Payments add?

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Expect to hold off for up to 40 days, @spreadlovelikefire.

Because eBay won't send your documents to their financial institution, a specialist at that "financial institution" e.g. PayPal will eventually time out and close your case because there was insufficient evidence to dispute the chargeback with the buyer's card issuer, since you didn't send any documents.