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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

First off, I will admit that electrical engineering is not this civil engineer's area of expertise. I thought that N power packs were for N scale, HO packs for HO layouts, you get the idea. Now I have test run my On30 purchases with both a N pack and a HO pack; I got better control with the N unit. But now I have seen a Bachmann transformer for G, HO and N scales! How can this be? I know Bachmann isn't a great power unit and I use MRCs. So what ratings do I look for in a power pack to run a G engine? I always thought heat would be an issue --- some thing would burn up and that would be it! Help me understand these things. And remember, I still don't understand how one can run 2 identical engines --- one forward facing and one reverse facing at the same time. Thanks for the help, Lee in Tucson
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

Chuck, Try this. Think of a "power district" as a "block". I think you need a minimum of 4 blocks or power districts to have signal control. You try to keep the trains with a one block separation at all times. These 4 blocks can all be powered from the one power supply if the amperage is enough. Or, you can add on a booster power supply for each block or power district, or you can use a booster to power 2 blocks and the original power unit to power the other 2 blocks. Your blocks are just sections of track with insulated rail joiners between. Your stationary decoders that do the detection and signal changing should get their power from the track feeders for that power section or block. Are you going to use the signals as actual train control or just for looks? I'm sure you told us, but what DCC system are you using? MRC, Digitrax, Bachmann or NCE? B-)
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

I have a Digitrax Zephyr, which I just found out by reading the manual is rated at 3amps. Yes I plan to use the signals as train control. Now you see why I need so many blocks. Four on both main lines. If I can lay my track as planned each block will be longer than my longest train. I learned my lesson on my old layout as I kept upgrading I had to keep tearing up track drilling holes for wire Etc. which to me was a big pain in the you know where. If I understand DCC I plan on hooking up all the wires from the blocks to the bus wire for now. As I add decoders all I have to do is disconnect the wires from the bus hook them up to the decoder and connect the decoder to the bus or booster. Does this make sence to you? Chuck 🙂
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

Chuck, I'll have to do some more reading. I do not know right now how you can control the trains with the signals. Give me some time to study my manuals and books. I think you are on the right track, pun intended, but I want to know more myself before I commit. B-) Pete
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

The way the signals work is as the train enters the block the signal turns red, meaning the block is occupied. I have not yet figure out how to tell the approaching train to stop. You don't even want to know I did this in DC. If I cannot get it to work in DCC that's fine at least I will have changing signals lights. I think theres is a way using the stepping function to slow the train. I am still reading also. I think I am trying to learn to much at one time and I should just take it a step at a time. Chuck:)
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

Chuck, From what I can figure out, you need to have two power supplies, two boosters and two "Power Shields" with the capability of four districts each. This will give you eight power districts or blocks. That should be more than enough for your 4x8. To control the signals, you need some kind of detection device; optical, infrared, or magnetic switches. These circuits control the signals. These block occupancy detectors can then be wired into a circuit with a stationary decoder through a lot more wiring to control the power to the district. I will not attempt to rewrite the books here, but there is a very good explanation in "Digital Command Control" by Stan Ames, Rutgger Friberg & Ed Loizeaux. I'm sure the Digitrax Big Book also explains it. If it were me, I'd let the block occupancy detectors do the signal changing and just keep an eye on my trains. The system you want is very complicated wiring-wise.I went to DCC for the simplicity of control. Two wire hook-up and I can do much more than I used to do with all my blocks and toggles. To each his own. If you enjoy wiring, have at it and good luck. B-)
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

trmwf
Enthusiast
Chuck, Of course, you realize that you will have to let the following train know AT LEAST two blocks behind the leading train. In other words, when train #1 enters block #4 the signal governing block #4 will change to red, the signal governing the entrance to block #3 will change to yellow (to warn of block #4 being occupied) and this must be done while train #2 is still entirely within block #2. This, of course since you are only going to have 4 blocks, also means that since train #2 is still occupying block #2 the signal governing entrance from block #1 to block #2 will be red and that means that the signal governing the entrance from block #4 to block #1 will be yellow. In theory what you will have is two trains constantly following each other on yellow signals, or what they call an approach signal. The definition of an approach signal is "proceed, preparing to stop at the next signal. If exceeding medium speed, reduce to medium speed immediately. Medium speed is defined as a speed NOT EXCEEDING 30mph. This is all necessary to keep from having a train entering a block on a clear signal running at track speed then having the next signal red as by the time they see the signal there is no way that they will be able to get stopped short of the red signal safely or not even at all. Of course, if there is a siding within the block you will need to get your signals to display a red over yellow for a "diverging approach", a red over green for a "diverging clear" and yellow over green for an "approach diverging" indication. That is if you are using color light signals rather than the light position signals which are entirely different and use nothing but yellow lights. Of course, if part of your layout is downgrade, then you will need an intermediate signal capable of showing a yellow over yellow which is an "advanced approach" which warns the train to be prepared to stop at the second signal and gives the train traveling downgrade additional time to get stopped. If you wanted to run three trains with your four blocks we would have to talk about red over red over yellow or a single red on a mast with a number plate (which designates intermediate signals). These are both "restricting" signals which allow a train to entire a block that is already occupied by another train and will further restrict your speed to a maximum of 15 mph but often way less. Like Pete says, "have fun wiring!" prof
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

trmwf
Enthusiast
Oh, I almost forgot the "slow approach", the "slow clear", the "diverging approach diverging", the "approach distant".......... prof
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

Prof, I wonder if we have driven Chuck away from signal control of the trains on a small layout....I wouldn't even attempt it in DC unless I had a computer interface. Gee, more wire. Nope. I like my two power district, one booster, capable of running 4 trains at once with no problems, two bus wire and power routing turnout new layout. B-) PS: Nice clear explanation of what signals are really supposed to do. Thanks. That is all except the Pennsylvania which had its own weird rules and multiple headed signal masts. You forgot to explain semaphores...
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

trmwf
Enthusiast
The N&W also used light position signals. I just figure if you are going to the trouble of having working signals you may as well have them working right and as realistic looking as possible. People tend to think of them as traffic lights; green go and red stop. They don't stop to think about "spacing" of trains and the consequences of failing to keep them apart. With only 4 blocks, Chuck will not be able to accomplish it. prof
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

On a 4x8, any more than 4 blocks would make for some very short trains. Chuck, My opinion, although you didn't ask for it, is to use the DCC to control your trains as if the engineers were actually paying attention to the signals, without interfacing the actual train control between the Command module and the signals. Then, set up your blocks with some kind of detector to sense the block occupation and operate the signals for visual effect only. Just my thoughts. B-)
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

trmwf
Enthusiast
But if you are not going to use them why install them. Just stick some plastic ones along the RofW with the lenses painted green or red. I have a question about the detector circuits. Do they register only the engine(s) electrically by their presence using current in the block or are they some type of motion sensors that will detect when the entire train has entered/departed the block? I'm wondering if the previous signal goes clear when the engines leave the block or the rear of the train clears out of the block??????? Another question..I believe Chuck said he had this signal system working with DC so why mess with the DCC???? Inquiring minds want to know! prof
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

Thank you all for the advice.My Dc layout is long gone. I am starting this layout from scratch. In my DC layout I was using old fashion stepping relays. Transistors were just being developed. My electrical panel was almost as big as my layout. I should of bought stock in Radio Shack. You guys have convinced me to use my signals for looks and I will just watch the trains my self. Thanks again for the advice. Chuck:) PS: It took me over five years to get those signals and wiring to work right. By the way my old layour was HO.
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

prof, There appear to be several types of sensors for detectors; infrared, light sourced, magnetic and electrical resistance measuring are some. As far as I know, these can be used and set in different ways. I think that trains with all metal wheels have a different affect on the circuits than those with plastic car wheels. Chuck, I'm sure you can use the detector circuits to work your signals. Check out www.ittsound.com for their IR Detectors. Also, try Tony's Train Exchange for help. They advertise in MR and other mags. B-)
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

Well I bought my first booster for my DCC N Scale layout a Digitrax DB 150 w/power supply 5 amps. Since I am now running so many sound decoders with the engines I needed more power. But I am having problems. Even the store I bought it from (Linchfield Station) can't figure this one out. My problem is all my engines now will not start moving until the throttle is at 25%. At full power all engines are running at about half speed. All engines sounds like there struggling. All the outputs from the booster have been measured and are correct for N Scale. This booster does not come with instructions to hook it up as a booster since it is part of the Empire Builder set and is used as a command station. Bruce from Licchfield Station is calling Digitrax hoping to get some answers for us. Was hoping someone in DCC might be able to help or have a suggestion what might be causing this problem. Chuck PS: Found out signal control in DCC is simple and not much wiring involved. Will explain latter after I get this problem solved.
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Power Pack Transformers - Need some help

Chuck, The call to Digitrax is the best way to go. Meanwhile, check to see if your booster and original command station are in phase. What I mean is the connections to the tracks are both positive or negative to the same rail. My other thought is that the new booster is also trying to send packets to the decoders since it is, as you said, really a command station and not just an additional power source. The booster to my NCE system, as an example, is just a signal booster and has no command functions. Your original and new command (booster) may be fighting each other somehow to control the decoders. You can also go on line to ask Digitrax directly. B-)
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