Reporting US Forever Stamp Sales that Appear to be Counterfeit. (Keep the Discussion to Stamps only)

[bobdenneu]

I know this topic has been discussed by various Categories and Forums over the years, but I think it belongs here on the Stamp Board.  For the past couple of months I've noticed an increasing number of listings for US Forever Stamps that appear to be Counterfeits.  It's not only occurring on eBay, but also on Amazon, Walmart, Etsy, and other sites devoted to discounts on stamps.  Most of the suspicious sales have been sourced out of China but sales also are showing up from US sources.

Some Users, mainly from China and some from the US, show blatant disregard to the eBay Selling Policy and eBay certainly doesn't have Stamp Experts determining what is real or fake.  Because no one at eBay appears to be monitoring suspect sales, I believe it is up to the Stamp Community to let them know what listings fall into the 'To Good to be True' category.   

I've had conversations with eBay regarding suspect Counterfeit Sales to determine the best method to deal with suspicious listings.  They told me that using the "Report Item" button on a listing will inform them that the item being sold should be investigated.   

To Report an Item. 

Press the 'Report Item' button above 'Item Specifics' on the listing in question.

File a Report Page Appears.

     Report Category

          I select 'Prohibited and restricted items'

     Reason for Report

         I select 'Stamps, currency, and coins'

     Detailed Reason

         I select 'Other currency and stamp concerns'

     Brief Description

         You can enter your suspicions here.

     Submit

With that bit of knowledge I have been reviewing listings in the US Postage Category.  It isn't hard to determine items that are suspected of being Counterfeit.  I concentrated on US Forever Stamps Sales looking at the listing price or sales price versus face value.  All the Flag stamps from primarily 2017 thru 2022, most of the Booklets from 2019 thru 2022, and a lot of Sheets from 2020-2022 are suspected of being Counterfeited . The old adage 'You'll Know it when you see it" applies.  At first Buy it Now items selling at approximately half face value were no brainers.  Then I had to decide how to determine if sellers using the Auction format got around the obvious hall price sale.  That took a little more investigation.  It helped to look at the seller's 'Sold Listings".   If the amounts received from Auction sales still had huge discount repeatedly, then its suspicious.   One-offs do occur where a seller just wants to dump stamps for whatever reason.  That's why looking at not only the current listing but See Other Items listed for sale and Sold Listings are important to review

The Stamp Community has to step up and make an effort to stop Counterfeit Listings.  If eBay receives multiple Report Item complaints they may actually act.   You should be concerned if you are a Seller because your prices are being undermined.   If you are a Buyer, your concern would be not knowing if what you bought was real.   

In additional posts, I will let the Board know what I've discovered fighting this problem and hopefully persuade the Community to act. 

[bobdenneu]

Check out United States Postal Inspection Service (USPIS) site and you'll see their locations are regional and limited.  As far as local PO's, they wouldn't know the first thing about Counterfeit Stamps.  To file a report one needs the name and address of the person/entity and a reason for filing.  Suspicion of Counterfeiting is not on their list of reasons.  To start reporting to the USPIS it appears you'll need funds to purchase items and maybe more important, the time to do it. 

Searching 'Reporting Counterfeit Postage Stamps' reveals attempts to combat Counterfeiting in the past.  Even various News Organizations have reported their attempts alert USPIS.  Most often the reply to inquiries is "We are looking into the matter". 

You are skeptical about Plots from China and there's no Real Money in Counterfeiting Stamps.  Where do you think Counterfeits are produced?

[gr-stamps3]

OK, so how about:  "Don't buy forever stamps at a deep discount to face value," and we can close up this thread of discussion?  

[bobdenneu]

You do realize that some of us sell stamps on eBay and most users won't buy these items.  What concerns me is someone in the US buys these stamps 50% off and then resells them a sheet, roll, or booklet at a time for face value.  These items compete with legitimate stamps bought from the USPS.  It makes it harder for a reseller to sell out of print stamps for a premium.  

I thought this is Board for Discussions.  

[bobdenneu]

As a group, the Big 7 user ID's, that have identical listings except for quantities, listed 121 new items within the past 48 hours just in the US Postage Category.  Most of those listings are replacing items sold.  Each sale had at least 100 stamps and sold at approximately 50% of face value.

Waiting for feedback from eBay on their investigation.

[jaywild]

bobdenneu

It is not possible to sell bulk mint US coils and sheets on eBay for anywhere near face value.  The discount is 30% or more.  Check "completed listings" and you will see that this is true.

[bobdenneu]

Gee, maybe you ought to check out prices received in my sold listings.   I think many sellers would disagree with such a broad statement.  Quality matters, packing matters, Shipping matters, Presentation matters, Disclosure of faults matters.  Did I leave anything out?

[billsey]

Jay, that's true for older issues than Forever stamps, but for Forever stamps since they are still worth the current rate they should be selling at very close to face. I don't know if eBay will let me, but here's a seller with a bunch of $300 face coils being offered at starting prices of $80. What are the odds they are genuine?

ebay.com/sch/hudie1799/m.html?item=284904955033&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m3561.l2562

[bobdenneu]

That seller's on my list of 7.  Did you file a Report Item?  That's the purpose of this Thread, to get the Stamp Community to fight back against Counterfeiters.

[jaywild]

So--all these sales are fraudulent?  You must be on a faster horse than me.

I have never seen BULK lots of common current US mint stamps go for face value.

When buyers buy bulk US stamps they are looking for a discount because they intend to use  them on mailings.  With all due respect, this assertion "Quality matters, packing matters, Shipping matters, Presentation matters" aren't what bulk buyers care about.

But if you believe in your cause, by all means pursue whatever justice is available. 

[gr-stamps2]

Agreed - these stamps are bought to use on mailings, they do not compete with collector stamps.  I sell some bulk at that 25% to 30% discount (older, non-forever!), and I buy quite a bit in estates and big lots at a steep discount, and these tend to be both older and forever stamps, as collected.  I guess I am most surprised that if there are suspicious sales going on of questionable 'products' then the UPPIS should be a lot more aggressive and public in its prosecutions of counterfeiters, to deter the bad guys.  Something just does not smell right, if they are not aggressively going after bad guys?

[bobdenneu]

That really makes sense.  Chinese representatives are going to estate sales in the US.  Purchasing bulk quantities of stamps.  Sending them back to China so they can list and sell them on eBay to mass mailers in the US looking for cheap stamps for postage. 

Does anybody actually collect or deal with US Forever Stamps?  Do mass mailers actually use stamps anymore?  The Bills and mail I receive every month use Metered Mail, the only stamps I see on mail is from Non-Profits, Invitations, and Celebrations.

[kc9tws]

This title is incorrect, in this listing, so therefore any collector would be suspicious of this one.

https://www.ebay.chttps://www.ebay.com/itm/284904997131?hash=item4255a9410b:g:RzwAAOSw1T5i2X9Hom/itm... 

[bobdenneu]

What's also interesting is that if you searched Forever Drum Bell in active listings and sold items, you'll find multiple sellers with the same verbiage and shared photo's.  Only thing different amongst the similar listings is the quantity being sold.

Report the item.

[malolo]

Here's something in the laws that has made it more difficult for US authorities to track imports. The laws were not created to protect us from counterfeit stamps (primarily fashion products), but from other non-competative actions taken by Chinese businesses. From a January 2022 article:

"U.S. Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.), chairman of the House Ways and Means Trade Subcommittee, unveiled new legislation Tuesday that he and others said would strengthen U.S. international trade import laws to stop non-market economies and goods from what they see as exploitation of the de minimis threshold that allows imports valued under $800 to come into the U.S. free of duties, taxes or fees.

“The number of packages we receive in the United States has skyrocketed to more than 2 million daily packages–a number that will only climb in the coming years,” Blumenauer said. “As long as foreign companies that sell their goods in America are splitting up their shipments to evade tariffs and oversight, American businesses will continue to be put at a competitive disadvantage cost-wise. This loophole  also makes it easier for people to import illegal goods and harmful products because there is virtually no way to tell whether these packages contain products made through forced labor, intellectual property theft or are otherwise dangerous.”"

So businesse which import products in bulk and distribute from warehouses in the US have to record product and maybe pay import duties, etc, etc. If Chinese products are imported individually and worth less than $800, there is no oversight as to the product's legality. Maybe these stamps are coming in with no inspection or record keeping, which would explain the lack of interest by US officals.

I don't know if this is a real effect of de minimis threshold rules, but to send product to China the threshhold is $7.00! Lowering the $800 level to the US down to $7 might end all these problems! 

[malolo]

From the same source - January 2020 -

"An annual report from Customs and Border Protection (CBP) on intellectual property seizures, including large volumes of counterfeits, revealed that U.S. authorities made seizures totaling $1.4 billion in fiscal 2018. Over 90 percent of all intellectual property (IPR) seizures occur in the international mail and express shipment environments, according to the report, which is a common method of shipping by e-commerce sites.

Chinese products accounted for 46 percent of all IPR seizures with a total suggested retail price $761.1 million in 2018. Apparel and accessories were the top counterfeit products seized by U.S. authorities."

Maybe Customs and Border Protection would become interested if the © on the rolls of Forever stamps proved to be fraudulent! One must buy and send to this agency (or do it online) for the officials to see what you are complaining about.