Ivory and ethical issues

[d-baron]

I have to admit, I have made a point in the past of never buying anything made of ivory. Basically because, I not only wanted to make sure that I wasn't inadvertently supporting modern day poachers but also because of the fact that an animal had to have died needlessly at some point in time to provide any kind of ivory put into circulation. Not sure I will ever be able to overlook that principle, even if it involves collecting chess sets. Hope that doesn't upset anyone. I think the ivory sets are often beautiful, but I suspect I would not be able to get that out of my mind while handling/playing with them. Duncan

[chessspy]

Hi, All, The cull has been announced, the tree huggers are having a field day.

[cpe1991]

I have learned how to distinguish between mammoth and elephant ivory. http://www.britishchesssets.com/ivory/index.html Alan

[chessspy]

Hi, Alan, thats a good clear picture and shows the difference well. I bought a largish lump of Mammoth in Portobello this morning, 6 kilo's (£400) it's a bit 'onion rings', but useable.

[gevork6]

All: I really liked Alan's picture of modern elephant ivory versus mammoth ivory.......just wondering does anyone know what Shreger's lines actually represent? Are these Shreger's lines visual artifacts related to the way the ivory has been cut (i.e. at 90 degrees) or are these lines analogous to Haversian canals found in our bones? Also is there any difference in the so called lines of Owen between modern elephant ivory and mammoth ivory? Man I wish I had a high powered microscope and a dermatome at my disposal so I can start my own histologic investigations! aa

[gevork6]

....the thought just occurred to me: Since medical laboratories around the world have already begun to successfully replicate and harvest different tissue types in vivo, might it not be in the offing that elephant ivory will soon be cultivated in similar fashion? I mean just think, people like Alan D. might never again need to pound the pavements of far flung antique districts in search of their quarry. They will be able to have all the ivory they need and wish for simply by accessing the numerous petri dishes stockpiled about their very own apartments (flats)! On which anatomic lines or markings will we, the consumers, depend on in this great future to guide us as to the exact provenance of the piece of ivory before us then? aa

[cpe1991]

Art To quote from the scientific paper I took the diagram from: "The Schreger Pattern is a shadow phenomenon created primarily by the structure of microscopic dentinal tubules (Miller 1890; Miles and White 1960; Miles and Boyde 1961); the contribution of laminar dentine deposition to the Schreger Pattern is suggested but not fully understood. Dentinal tubules are fluid transport microcanals that radiate medially to laterally in rows from the center of the tusk, like the spokes of a wheel. Tubule diameter ranges from approximately 0.8 μm to 2.2 μm, and proboscidean dentinal tubules are sinusoidal. Both mammoth and modern elephant dentinal tubules have peak to peak sinusoidal wave distances of 0.8 to 2.5 mm. The visual perception of the Schreger Pattern is a function of intertubule distances and the wave alternation of adjacent dentinal tubule rows." Alan

[chessspy]

Hi, Art, I've been pondering the method by which the synthesis of ivory could be done for years. I have a number of books on ivory turning (from Victorian times)which speculate on the methods by which the wily Chinese softened and moulded ivory to produce their 'carvings', however this is now generally considered mythical. However, ivory turning 'swarf' was commonly used as gelatin, (which comes from animal bones after all) is now for jellies, and was sweetened by adding sugar and fruit cordials. I have speculated that if one were to 'dissolve some ivory dust into a saucepan of water and add more dust until a saturate was produced, then simmer until no more water was left, presumably the ivory would precipitate on the inside or the container and leave an ever thicker deposit of reconstituted ivory. I see no reason if bone can be grown on a lattice, that ivory , (which is chemically identical) cannot. The Shreger lines are growth marks delineating summer and winter growth cycles as in wood, but of course they represent the laying down of ivory deposits through the 'pulp' to the outer 'shell' from the middle outwards, (which as I think of it is exactly the same way wood grows.)

[godopenedherwomb]

Art, I have done some reading on patterns in nature and it seems that the Shreger Lines are in the same pattern as we see in sunflower seeds as they are in the plant. This pattern is formed by placing a counter clockwise spiral pattern atop a clockwise pattern or visa versa. Now what causes the ivory to grow in such a pattern is a discussion that is more suitable for the religion thread.... ;)Brad

[cpe1991]

Brad It is more suitable for discussion in the science thread! Alan

[chessspy]

Hi, Brad, That is total bollocks, The shreger lines are NOT in a, (thinking of a French mathematician, forgotten his name) pattern. Look again. Patterns occur in nature due to the way plants grow, this is due to either 'God' or 'nature' depending on your beliefs. But kindly do not impose your ideas on a perfectly reasonable discussion.

[cpe1991]

Hi Alan You are absolutely right about the patterns. The Schreger lines are not the famous Fibonacci spirals. Alan

[gevork6]

.......I just had some Fabonacci spirals with meat sauce for dinner.....just delicious.........LOL!!......I too am a firm believer in science....I have been taking voice lessons for the last two years, trying to learn the standard tenor repertoire.......I kept asking my teacher to explain why the great singers like Pavarotti had such beautiful high notes...was there in fact a technical reason for such sterling and bright tones?.....she ( a retired former opera soprano who sang at the met!) gave me a bunch of mumbo jumbo about tongue position, diaphragm support....nebulous stuff........I finally stumbled on the answer myself by finding a research article on the spectrographic analysis of Pavarotti's voice......turns out that Pavarotti was a master RESONATOR in that he was able to tune all his high notes to the FOURTH HARMONIC, a difficult technical task.....many of his contemporaries such as Domingo and Carreras could not do this....they were only able to tune the high notes to the THIRD HARMONIC, which results in a duller less "exciting sound"...... ...having understood all this I am now trying to learn how to tune to the fourth harmonic myself using a spectral analysis program on my PC...I may never succeed but at least now I know what it takes....I don't have to rely on some nebulous, fogbound generalization which really don't make sense (sadly, like most other humans, my mind is full of such spurious explanations to so many of life's questions)..... once one understand the science behind things everything makes so much more sense.......SO THERE IS A SCIENTIFIC REASON WHY PAVAROTTI WAS MORE SUCCESSFUL ( and made more $$$$) THAN HIS CONTEMPORARIES LIKE DOMINGO!....It was not luck or charisma.... ...I wonder if a similar scientific approach can be taken to chess players and their games.....there must be scientific reason why Kasparov constantly out performed his rivals for so many years.....I wonder if there is something in Kasparov's technical approach to the game that we might be able to quantify...maybe the answer will turn out to be that Kasparov has more glial cells in his brain than average and is therefore able to make neural comnnections much more effeciently...I belive that Albert Einstein's brain had a markedly higher number of gilial cells than average!..instead of the usual>>>>he just had a higher IQ or better memory, or other hocus pocus generalizations......maybe someone will discover his secret one day and enlighten us all!! Maybe I'll be able to get a glial cell count of my brain one day and find out that I'm better suited to games like TIC TAC TOE than chess!!..LOL!!.....better yet come to think of it Hocus Pocus may not be so bad after all!!:^O aa

[cpe1991]

So, top opera singers are a bunch of master resonators.

[chessspy]

Hi, Alan, OK so he was Italian, they are also C.E.S.M.s (or perhaps SESMs but clever with it)

[godopenedherwomb]

Alans, I stand corrected. I took a good look at some Schreger lines and they definitely are not Fibonacci spirals. But they certainly do look like they are formed by mirror image patterns, one being atop the other. Correct me if I am wrong Alan but it appears that the pattern starts from the core or root and half of the lines curve clockwise and the other half curve counter clockwise. Is this indeed the case? And is this the same for all ivory? It is certainly a most beautiful design! 😉 Brad