05-11-2007 01:37 PM
01-01-2012 11:12 AM
Curious, in view of the foregoing- are there any kind of recommendations as to what is the best humidity level for ivory and/or other materials used for making chess sets? Perhaps not for chess sets, per se, but for the materials themselves, in general?
01-02-2012 11:08 AM
John,
I live in a very 'damp 'part of England and have never had any problems with ivory items - which I do not keep in any form of cabinet. It's a very old house, made of granite with no damp course. Granite is a porous stone and water in the ground is sucked up and comes out of the stone into the house quite naturally. So, there is no need for any 'watering' despite central heating, an Aga and a large woodburner that is perpetually 'on' in the winter.
Nothing scientific there, I'm afraid! Measuring humiditry etc is a little pointless - it would simply show a great disparity through the seasons, I would imagine.
What would be interesting would be to know of the experiences of those who live in an arid climate - have they experienced cracking and can it be overcome by 'artificial' measures?
01-07-2012 06:16 AM
Duncan (d-baron) and Keith (Corptaxman) and any other interested parties): Well, I think I waited long enough, and with no input (yet) from others.... I think I will pipe in again in this subject.
Duncan.
To try to answer your question in a long and roundabout way... For human comfort (as well as for wood chess sets, ivory, and bone....) I would think that an indoor humidity level of about 50% is appropriate (if it can be maintained) throughout the year. Some folks and sources talk about a range of between 40 - 60% to be acceptable.
However, in winter time - in northern dry climates, for example, here in the N.E. and Central USA, having humidity levels of above 60% (but especially above 70% can lead to mold growth. That level can be harmful to house structures, since it promotes mold growth. And while, generally speaking, the mere presence of mold, mildew, and mold spores and not necessarily harmful to humans, it can be problematic if a.) The exposed person is allergic to mold, b.) the person has asthma, c,) The person has a compromised immune system, and/or if the amount of mild spores inhaled is too high
While there is not an actual regulatory or set-in stone "level" (here in the USA) of mold spores or parts that is considered "safe" or “unsafe” for a person in general, too much of anything is not good. For example, drinking too much water is not good. Too much salt intake is not good. Breathing too much of any one particular gas is not good. And inhaling too many particulates, regardless of the material or source, is also not good. Etc. etc. etc. (I say all of this, having worked within and headed the non-industrial) Indoor Air Program for the Vermont Department of Health a number of years ago.) And of course, one does not want mold or mildew growing on paper (books) or ivory, etc.
Keith:
The information you provided about your own dwelling is interesting. And your question to the group is good one, I think. And even though I think I understand why you asked that question, there might be a point that got missed. I am not sure.
In the northeastern and north central climates in the USA, outdoor winter air tends to be fairly dry. Indoor humidity levels can also be dry, since there is usually an exchange between the outdoor levels and the indoor levels.
Unless one's house is extremely "tight" and one supplements the house’s humidity level by way of many (mechanically) unvented showers or cooking activities, and/or one uses room humidifiers or house humidification systems, then the indoor air can humidity levels can drop to the 20's and 30's. Occasionally, it could be as low as in the teen's! I know this is not good for human comfort, and I suspect could possibly lead to increased susceptibility to respiratory infections, if exposed to viruses, etc. I also don't believe a humidity level in the teens and low 20's is good for the "life and health" of things such as ivory (and pianos!)
Over the last couple of days and weeks, I have been struggling to get and keep the indoor house level at about 45 (or so) % humidity. The other day, the outdoor temperature was down to zero degrees F or so. Many (but not all) of the time here in Vermont, the outdoor air gets much drier when the outdoor air is so cold.
I think it is time for me to use my new, relatively small, humidifier. (As it was, I have only been using the small glasses of water in the display cases. That seems to work for ivory. But for the pianos and human comfort, additional indoor moisture is needed. That is, the only sources of indoor air moisture I have used this far have been a.) the unvented shower moisture in an individually heated bathroom) b.) the unvented (electric stove) cooking activities, c.) a pan of water atop the wood stove in the basement and d.) human respiration and skin evaporation.
In summary, as far as my ivory and bone and wood chess sets which I have collected for nearly 19 years..... so far, so good, as far as not (seemingly) having any new cracks the pieces.
I do not, however, know how long it would take such materials to crack (due to heat and/or dryness) over a long period of time.... say, decades and centuries. My guess is that would depend on a number of factors. But I will leave it to all of you to add whatever knowledge or guesses you'd like to take...
"Johnny V."
01-07-2012 09:39 AM
Here in the valley in Northern California, it is usual for the humidity to be in the teens and twenties on a regular basis. In fact, once it starts getting highter than that we start complaining about the high humidity. :^O
The only time it gets higher than that is usually in the winter when it is raining, when the humidity is of course much higher. Actually, as far as I'm concerned, if it's raining the humidity is 100%, but that's me, I hate rain.
01-21-2012 09:45 AM
Two quick(?) summaries and one "new" multi-lined mentioning:
1.) Based upon my little experiment described in a recent posting in this thread. detail below, I believe that having a glass(es) or container(s) of water within a display cabinet or case helps with the humidity level within the case. I do not believe that the cabinet / case door needs to be absolutely air tight in order for to see a change (usually, I think it would be a rise of humidity within the cabinet/case, in dry, northern climates.)
2.) Several days ago, the outdoor temperature here in Central Vermont was MINUS 18 degrees F. Unless a house is very "tight" and/or has moisture supplementation to the ambient air in the house, usually, the level of indoor humidity drops when the outside air is so cold. That is, the indoor air becomes dry (due to, I believe, two occurrences): a.) the heating system, which tends to dry out things. and b.) infiltration of outdoor dry air into the inside of the house.
"New":
3.) On another fairly cold and dry outside day, I measured the humidity within a guest room in which I have a piano. BTW, the temperature by the piano was about 66 degrees. (I do supplement the moisture level with a newly bought "ultrasonic" visible mist humidifier.) The humidity level on / near my piano was 44 %. I was able to determine that by use of a hygrometer (a moisture level reading little piece of equipment.)
As I recall, on that same day, the indoor temperature by a nearby window sill and sash was in the mid to upper 50's F. I found it very interesting (and confirming another line of thinking I and others have) that the humidity level on a nearby window sill was 57%. I think that makes sense, because near the windows - and especially by the window pane - the air is colder and is not able to hold as much moisture as warmer air. It therefore condenses and forms on the window pane and window sash. (At least, that is what I believe occurs).
One of the significant aspects learned and relearned about # 3 is that - while indoor humidity levels of about 50 % in winter can be helpful for human comfort - levels that are too high (approaching perhaps in the 60 % range) can cause condensation on colder surfaces. Examples of colder surfaces in winter could be window areas, the corners of rooms, the junctures between the walls, ceilings, and floors, and behind furniture that is snug or very close to an outside wall. That is where mildew and mold growth can more likely occur. This can especially be problematic if there is (even painted) sheetrock (wall board) and/or wall paper. How do I know these things? Mainly by my own personal experience within my own house! But it is also supplemented by reading.
Moral of the story... With cold, dry, outdoor weather, indoor humidity levels may well need some augmentation. However, too much is not good (and this would be true for ivory, as mold will grow on ivory.) I suppose that in Hot Summer or Damp Spring or Autumn outdoor weather - or even during summer (k)night time humid weather - indoor humidity levels must also be controlled. Too high of moisture levels will cause mold growth to occur on suitable surfaces. In those cases, dehumidification / air conditioning, and closing the house off from the outside air will help. Again, how do I know this? "Let me count the ways"... (from personal experience and observation.)
John, VT.
01-21-2012 01:55 PM
I'll act the Killjoy, again - I had thought this was all about the effect of humidity on chess sets (etc) - humans can generally look after themselves (and if they don't....in general: tough!). Mould (on chess pieces) might be unsightly and can be damaging if left untreated, but is fairly easy to get rid of should it attack a set of any material (I have experienced this on some sets left in the end bedroom that is built into the bank of the hillside).
My main concern would be cracking to pieces: I'm sure extreme humidity/temperatue variations can result in this, but wonder whether it is more the natural drying process of the material, almost irrespective of the environment - and whether artificial control of humidity really does prevent as opposed to simply slow this down.
I'm sure we've all seen sets with cracks, but has anyone actually had a crack occur on a set in their posession, and, if so, what sort of atmosphere had it been stored in? I certainly haven't experienced it.
01-21-2012 04:19 PM
Keith,
Actually, your question/comments "My main concern would be cracking to pieces: I'm sure extreme humidity/temperatue variations can result in this, but wonder whether it is more the natural drying process of the material, almost irrespective of the environment - and whether artificial control of humidity really does prevent as opposed to simply slow this down." hits the nail on the head and is an excellent question.
I myself do not know. Perhaps one or more of the following folks know. (I have met / know all three). Anyone want to contact one or more of them?
1.) Tomas V. Gallegos, (CCI member and author of "Ivory at a Glance" a many-paged document on ivory identification, etc.) The document can also be found within the CCI membership website.
2.) Ron Fromkin, http://www.ivoryrepair.com/
3.) Alan Dewey http://www.chessspy.co.uk/ (Alan is probably the oldest of all three and may have seen ivory over a longer period of time. 😉 ) Alan, where are you when we need you?) 😉
Also, the following website seems to be a reputable and good source of information: ("Smithsonian")
http://www.si.edu/mci/english/learn_more/taking_care/ivory.html
John.
01-22-2012 04:33 AM
Alan D no longer visits this group, as far as I am aware, but posts may well come to the attention of his House, and a suitable response may appear (!).
01-22-2012 06:06 AM
Keith,
Yes, perhaps Alan D (or Sir Poshington?) will make a guest appearance!
Speaking of "Alan"(s)..... (and not to digress from this topic of display and conservation) I cannot help but notice (since he is the one who began this interesting thread) that that is a very interesting crown I currently see to the left of Alan Fersht's introductory message in this thread.
I don't know why I did not notice it before. Perhaps it has been there for a while... and my own amatuerish, non-eagle eyes never noticed that particular avatar.
As I understand it, such "stamped" crowns (on authentic Jaques Staunton sets) differ on the the tops of some chess pieces - depending on which specific time period they were made. That is, the stamped crowns on the top of the King's bishops and rooks should match each other - IF the chess pieces are from an orignal set of pieces (or batch from which the pieces were taken.)
However, I have also heard (but I don't think it was from Alan F - though I am not sure) that sometimes, one of the old time carvers/turners would mistakenly reach for the wrong "batch", and inadvertently pick up a stamped piece from another time period. Now, that seems to be a suspicious explanation. To me, it might be just as likely that a seller of a particular Jaques Staunton chess set found a replacement piece him/herself - and decided to try and risk placing it within the set - hoping that the buyer would not notice!
(Now, why is my suspicious Mr. Hyde - me, of course - coming out of hiding this morning? Heck if I know.... I have problems enough controlling Dr. Jekyll...!)
Well, on that note, I wish all of you a solid, straight-forward, non-schizophrenic type of a day. Happy Sunday!
😉
"Johnny V" (Fever)....
01-22-2012 07:38 AM
John,
(i) re the Alan's - you can hope, but I wouldn't bother if I were you.
(ii) re the crown - that's an ivory set crown stamp. The question of stamps is a whole different topic that has been exposed (but not necessarily concluded) elsewhere ! You can view a lot, plus comments on the various Picasa sites - Mick's, Alan F's, The Chees Guy's, mine etc.
01-23-2012 05:36 AM
On occasion I have used my lady's user name to view these discussions.
pmcc63 (320 ) View Listings
So at least in my case looking in has been possible, and some group members might have thought my activity had ceased.
I left the group as Chesspurr and re joined after a period.
If a regular group member visits but chooses to say nothing , and is also a member of a private research group , it suggest to me at least that supposed inactivity is debetable.
Is anything in this group private anymore,not that it ever was to non group members . Cut and paste is a very useful tool for keeping a low profile.
01-23-2012 06:41 AM
Place your 'debets' Ladies & Gentlemen!
Of course this is not a private group, so musings are not private - I thought that was the point.
Interesting, 'though, that people might feel the need to pose as others, yet classify the great unwashed as Zombies.