Free Returns

[plumbingspecials]

I had a conversation with an eBay rep yesterday who called me to tell me (once again) about the free returns program, and how this wonderful program can boost sales by 15 percent, according to some data that was most likely manipulated to get people to believe that sales = profits.

I feel really bad because by the end of the conversation, she was trembling, perhaps even in tears, and that was certainly not my intention. The poor girl was just doing the job she was hired to do, reading a script that she was told to read, and to try to convince Top Rated Sellers that it's okay to be extorted by eBay. I hope she did not take my feedback about eBay personally, but I really think it was her first day. I explained to her that this move by eBay is opening a whole new channel for thieves. Now they can search by "free returns" so they can target sellers who offer this program. Thieves know they can get items for free or for at least 50% off. There is no way a seller can make a profit with this strategy. There is no honor among thieves, and if eBay truly believes members are always honest, they are sadly optimistic. As it is now, most returns are FALSE SNAD cases (in other words, the buyer LIES to avoid shipping and restocking fees), so let's just make it easier for them by removing the step where they have to lie to return something for free (yep, that will make them honest!). The rep excitedly tells me that if the item is returned in any other condition than we sent it, we are allowed to keep 50% of the sale and refund only 50% instead of having to refund the full transaction. After four reports of buyers misuing the free returns system, eBay will give them warning. So they get to rip off at least FOUR sellers before eBay shuts them down.  (Yep, again that's keeping them honest!)

I reiterated to the rep that eBay is cheating us out of our TRS benefits by forcing us to take losses on our sales. If we do not conform to this ridiculously unprofitable policy, we do not get our benefits on those listings. So, If I sell an item for $1000, the buyer requests a return and sends back a box of rocks, I get to keep 50% of the sale IF I CAN PROVE that I sent out the correct item. I do not get a discount on my final value fees because it's only a partial refund, but hey, at least eBay put our TRS badge on that item.

So to put this in perspective:

I have a unit that I paid 700 for (because I am adistributor).

I sell the unit for $1000. I pay shipping $25. Buyer requests return, I pay another 25 plus call tagf fee of 16, so it costs 41 to bring it back. I receive a box of rocks, the buyer keeps the unit, and I get to keep half of the refund because the buyer didn't send back the same unit.  Here's what it looks like:

1000-100 (fvf)=900

900-25 (shipping)=875

875-700(cost of unit)=175

At this point I made a profit of 175 (sounds good, right?)

Oh but wait. The buyer requests a return (no reason is needed).

175 (what I initially made) - 41 (return shipping and call tag)=134

Buyer ships back box of rocks instead of a unit that I can re-sell.

134-500(partial refund for scam buyer)= -366

This transaction would cost ME $366 to receive something back other than what i sold.. Not sure how eBay expects people to sell here if we are not profitting or at least breaking even. 

I suppose the rep who called me NEVER SOLD A THING ON eBay! Because not one person who ever has, would agree that this is a "good" program for sellers. I think she realized that after I schooled her.

I still feel really bad though, because she honestly thought she was promoting a good program. 

[partsgalore1]

Very good point... since free returns is a new policy, how do they know what the affect on sales will be?

I suppose they extrapolate data from other companies that have free returns...like Amazon. However, it is unrealistic to compare Amazon to eBay since eBay is built on mom and pop sellers who are barely making a living as it is.

[newerused]

Mr._Lincoln, you always make intelligent and useful posts, I value your thoughts and ideas.

re: "@plumbingspecials Can't thank you enough for the well written and comprehensive original post "

[richardwillardcollection]

In the end, I have followed this whole discussion and it seems eBay is really inadvertently encouraging sellers to ultimately write their listings with no returns, and a very limited description such as, what you see is what you get, with the seller never pushing the accept return button and taking the negative feedbacks. There seems to be no solution, or happy medium for all three parties involved, the seller, the buyer and eBay. As sellers we need honest buyers, we do want to stand behind our products and accept honest returns, it needs to be fair for everyone. eBay is changing internally, the old is retiring and the young are taking their place in management. It's a huge corporation, but even Rome fell.

[carlmarxx]

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@mr_lincoln wrote:

@mightymouse  They have no business making that unsupported and unsubstantiated statement about a 15% increase in sales.  I don't believe it so show me the numbers.  Sales here or anywhere is subjective and a lot depends on what one is selling.  They did NOT look at ALL your items and categories and do exhaustive research to come up with that amount ...

They've been making the 11% increase in sales statement about Free Shipping too for quite some time ... I dabbled in a little of that to no affect ...   

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They  think  all sellers on this site are sheep and  that  will do  A  liberal  return policy  !  They Know that a lot of  member sellers that don't know where to go  too follow  retail industry   News   and  reports  done on retail buyer fraud issues  .

[richardwillardcollection]

In reply to Mr. Lincoln; This is just them admitting to positive proof of throttling, a confession if you will.

[shag_purple]

I have decided it's best to just offer 14 day returns now that I know I will not participate. I could also offer 2 day handling time when needed now. BTW most buyers do a search by lowest price and I offer some great prices so no worries there. BACKFIRE MUCH!

[sheilad2090]

Don't Feel Bad I did the same thing but the rep was a guy he told me that you can expect a 15%

return rate ???? my is about 1% maily becouse I sell Clothes at that point I Lost it on him when I was Done I started looking for other venues Im not playing their game this was 2 Months age Im actually doing better on those sites than here so THANK YOU EBAY 

[the-treasure-trove]

oregonwashingtoncollectables In my 13 years or so of selling on ebay I've had very few returns until the last year...it's been awful...I'm an honest seller and try to treat reople the way I want to be treated but new sellers try anything to get something for free and now ebay is NOT standing behind me, the seller. I've been so upset I'm ready to stop selling on ebay.

[calistas_closet33]

Problem is dishonest buyers are allowed to return items and definitely are the ones abusing SNAD and then ebay accepts the return on your behalf and you pay shipping back..no win situation, really it’s horrible. The buyer could put in text in additional info section of return, “I just don’t want to pay for return and I didn’t read listing” and still ebay will side with them. Then to get your shipping costs refunded..you’d need to call and hope someone in CS thought you were nice enough to THEM to reimburse your return  shipping costs.  If you offer free shipping, they will say we cannot reimburse you both shipping costs because you offered free shipping...make sense? Only to ebay

[mr_lincoln]

@partsgalore1

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@partsgalore1 wrote:

Very good point... since free returns is a new policy, how do they know what the affect on sales will be?

I suppose they extrapolate data from other companies that have free returns...like Amazon. However, it is unrealistic to compare Amazon to eBay since eBay is built on mom and pop sellers who are barely making a living as it is.

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Oh now THAT is brilliant!  Just absolutely brilliant! You hit the nail on the old head!  You are firing on ALL cylinders!  If you were anymore right you'd be left!  Even if they are using another venue's results how in the world are they obatining them?  There is just no way they can know that info unless the other site(s) are doing  .... the ... same ... thing ... by making up generalized statements about sale increasing for this reason or that reason.  So children, lets add up some of the alleged functionalities that will increase our sales and the total we can expect ... just got another one today ... if I add Best Offer I could increase sales by 6.7% ... so here's what we have:

15% increase by adding Free Returns

11% increase by adding Free Shipping

6.7% increase in sales by adding Best Offer

32.7% TOTAL increase in sales by adding those three things to our listings!  Did I miss any?

Oh, and btw, YOUR items are in carts, DROP your price by 5% to close the deals!!!!

[mr_lincoln]

@newerused

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@newerused wrote:
Mr._Lincoln, you always make intelligent and useful posts, I value your thoughts and ideas.

re: "@plumbingspecials Can't thank you enough for the well written and comprehensive original post "

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I am flattered to be sure ... many here post things deeply rooted in common sense ... I feel the same about others who post here.

[carlmarxx]

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@calistas_closet33 wrote:

Problem is dishonest buyers are allowed to return items and definitely are the ones abusing SNAD and then ebay accepts the return on your behalf and you pay shipping back..no win situation, really it’s horrible. The buyer could put in text in additional info section of return, “I just don’t want to pay for return and I didn’t read listing” and still ebay will side with them. Then to get your shipping costs refunded..you’d need to call and hope someone in CS thought you were nice enough to THEM to reimburse your return  shipping costs.  If you offer free shipping, they will say we cannot reimburse you both shipping costs because you offered free shipping...make sense? Only to ebay

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Well said!

[calistas_closet33]

32.7% increase in sales with a decrease in per item profit, work harder for ebay, make less for yourself...it is brilliant. I’m waiting for forced price drops..

[mr_lincoln]

@orangehound  Nice post ... rather to the point I might add.  About 100 years ago Napoleon Hill wrote Think and Grow Rich ... prior to that there was no real self help book for Professionals (like sales people and others) on self notivation and leadership.   His work became THE basis for all the other self help books like the 7 Minute Manager (approx title, sorry if I got it wrong) and others because he got it right and many who followed were just copy cats trying to make money by saying the same thing with a different cover.  Anyway, he interviewed some of the great manufacturing leaders of his day, Andrew Carnegie, Henry Ford, etc.  The book is all about positive thinking and motivation.  Good leaders LEAD people by means other then threats, coercion, manipulation, etc.  Good leaders get people to WANT to follow them and do not have to employ such tactics as carrot dangling, privilege removal, implied inuendo, valed threats, etc.  Good leaders are known by the good and complimentary things people say about them. 

In the world of online sales, which is really a dynamic and ever changing sales environment it is important to be the leader so the competition has to follow.  There are parts of eBay that I think still lead other venues and that would be world of antique, vintage, collectible and used items.  Selling new products is a different animal altogether and eBay just flat out is not the leader and is struggling to follow and keep up.  

[auctionsrva]

Entirely consistent with my experience on a SNAD return recently.  Even though the Ebay CSR agreed that the item was as described they found in favor of the buyer.  Ebay generously paid the return shipping, leaving me about $52 in the hole on the transaction.  At least 8 phone calls to customer service.  Ebay clearly did not follow the published policy. 

I'm looking for other venues.  Buyers bear responsibility just like sellers.  When there is no downside to an action and a potential upside you can be assured more of that action will be experienced. 

Ebay should put some bird feeders on their campus.  Then gather statistics on months when the feeders are filled vs months when they are not.  It won't require a doctorate in math from MIT to predict which months have more birds.