Free Returns

[plumbingspecials]

I had a conversation with an eBay rep yesterday who called me to tell me (once again) about the free returns program, and how this wonderful program can boost sales by 15 percent, according to some data that was most likely manipulated to get people to believe that sales = profits.

I feel really bad because by the end of the conversation, she was trembling, perhaps even in tears, and that was certainly not my intention. The poor girl was just doing the job she was hired to do, reading a script that she was told to read, and to try to convince Top Rated Sellers that it's okay to be extorted by eBay. I hope she did not take my feedback about eBay personally, but I really think it was her first day. I explained to her that this move by eBay is opening a whole new channel for thieves. Now they can search by "free returns" so they can target sellers who offer this program. Thieves know they can get items for free or for at least 50% off. There is no way a seller can make a profit with this strategy. There is no honor among thieves, and if eBay truly believes members are always honest, they are sadly optimistic. As it is now, most returns are FALSE SNAD cases (in other words, the buyer LIES to avoid shipping and restocking fees), so let's just make it easier for them by removing the step where they have to lie to return something for free (yep, that will make them honest!). The rep excitedly tells me that if the item is returned in any other condition than we sent it, we are allowed to keep 50% of the sale and refund only 50% instead of having to refund the full transaction. After four reports of buyers misuing the free returns system, eBay will give them warning. So they get to rip off at least FOUR sellers before eBay shuts them down.  (Yep, again that's keeping them honest!)

I reiterated to the rep that eBay is cheating us out of our TRS benefits by forcing us to take losses on our sales. If we do not conform to this ridiculously unprofitable policy, we do not get our benefits on those listings. So, If I sell an item for $1000, the buyer requests a return and sends back a box of rocks, I get to keep 50% of the sale IF I CAN PROVE that I sent out the correct item. I do not get a discount on my final value fees because it's only a partial refund, but hey, at least eBay put our TRS badge on that item.

So to put this in perspective:

I have a unit that I paid 700 for (because I am adistributor).

I sell the unit for $1000. I pay shipping $25. Buyer requests return, I pay another 25 plus call tagf fee of 16, so it costs 41 to bring it back. I receive a box of rocks, the buyer keeps the unit, and I get to keep half of the refund because the buyer didn't send back the same unit.  Here's what it looks like:

1000-100 (fvf)=900

900-25 (shipping)=875

875-700(cost of unit)=175

At this point I made a profit of 175 (sounds good, right?)

Oh but wait. The buyer requests a return (no reason is needed).

175 (what I initially made) - 41 (return shipping and call tag)=134

Buyer ships back box of rocks instead of a unit that I can re-sell.

134-500(partial refund for scam buyer)= -366

This transaction would cost ME $366 to receive something back other than what i sold.. Not sure how eBay expects people to sell here if we are not profitting or at least breaking even. 

I suppose the rep who called me NEVER SOLD A THING ON eBay! Because not one person who ever has, would agree that this is a "good" program for sellers. I think she realized that after I schooled her.

I still feel really bad though, because she honestly thought she was promoting a good program. 

[partsgalore1]

My mom used to always tell us... "don't cut off your nose to spite your face" Meaning don't hurt yourself to make a point. Why not just go to a buyer pays for return shipping? If they have some skin in the game they're much more likely to be honest and more careful.

[vintagecraze50]

You have to sell a whole lot of stuff to re coupe large lossess when you sell items like you sell. The basis of using this is to possibly attract more sales. If you can attract a great deal of more sales and not the thieves then maybe this is ok. If you attract a lot of thieves for the type of item you sell, LIKE A CELL PHONE-no way free returns! absolutely one step closer to thieving heaven for the free ship back. Except, now you get half of what they thieved back, um, if you can prove it?. IDK. That's ALWAYS been a problem here--can you prove it? Will they just let you get 50 percent back if you say it can back as a rock? IDK. Is that clear somewhere in the policy, somebody chime in here. Will there be a dispute process where the buyer can dispute that they did not send back a rock and will they believe them? IDK. 

It's russian roulette no matter how you slice it dice it. I quess you can or anyone else can try it for a bit and see how it all pans out and do a quick rescue recovery if it does not work. Best to you and all of us.

[avid.auctions]

Yup, I am a seller, a buyer and a stock holder. This will cost the company money. I am dropping my store at the end of the month (unless I can figure a way to get out of this stupid policy). I sell small items and my S&H costs with "free" return would cause me to lose money on every sale I would make. Not worth 10%. Also, I will no longer deal with tracking my shipping another incurred cost that EBAY makes us sellers do that causes me to charge more for shipping -- then they make 10% off that cost. I have put up with the **bleep** for too long: Since 1998, time to go to Amazon... They better listen to the sellers on this one. NOT GOOD FOR US, we leave, NOT GOOD FOR BUYERS - less sellers, higher costs, NOT GOOD FOR EBAY STOCKHOLDERS - less sellers, less buyers, less money, lower stock prices.

[carlmarxx]

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@orangehound wrote:

I think this program was created by a bunch of eBay Jr. Executives that were either drunk or high or both, and whose only experience in retail was buying mods for their COD characters.  Trying to kill two birds with one stone?  You don't solve the (a) crime on eBay and (b) needing to get free returns with a single program.   Seriously?

Crime?  If you want to solve crime on eBay, then give power/authority to the sellers (or at least a category of trained, authorized sellers) to make the judgment calls so as to cut this activity off at the source ... no store in America gives a refund if you show a receipt for an iPhone and hand over a bag of rocks.  Train us to do customer service the way you want it ... certify us ... give us authority ...

Free returns?   If eBay wants free returns to be common here just like they claim is done by the "industry standard" (I guess they are imagining it is Amazon), then I don't see why they don't pay for the return like Amazon.  If eBay paid for the return out of their profits instead of mine, then I would have no problem with free returns.

Yet, rather than doing something that makes sense, they create a Frankenstein Policy of "up to 50%" held back ... that will tick off both sellers and buyers.  Horrible drunk, high thinking. 

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There Is No "Industry Standard " for Free returns !  It is A Phony Claim . Made by the folks running ebay . There where couple brand name companies  that Offered  free returns  In "their Own Liberal return policy"  as  a way to get their buyer traffic  back from  Amazon  ! In their  "own Business Model"  which in the end costing those company's billions of dollars lost  to retail buyer fraud  per year.    There was a national buyers poll done recently asking buyers 15 questions  on what they are looking for on online sites they are buying from.  They  important Item details  and infomation on the top of the list . Number 15 on the bottom  of list was "Free Returns"  as not important when buying.

[dougsue123b]

We have had "free returns" for years, one just has to claim snad, and they do.

[plumbingspecials]

Yep, and eBay just took out the need for them to lie about it with "free returns" policy. Oh, we don't HAVE to offer it, but if we don't we will be lower in searches and visibility and we have no TRS+ benefits. Is this extortion or what? I believe so, and I do not know how eBay is legally getting away with it. Just because something is legal in the corporate world, certainly does not mean it is ETHICAL. eBay is no longer an ethical company (or were they ever?)

[mr_lincoln]

@plumbingspecials  Can't thank you enough for the well written and comprehensive original post ... and also, could not agree with you more.   I too started a thread on the topic and have replied to several others.  Your point about thieves really hits home because Free Returns takes the step where they lie out of that process ... now they just click Free Return and send back whatever they want.  And the Search parameter for Free Returns lets them find where they want to shop for Free.

While I still believe returns are a low percentage of total transactions it means little when it happens to you.  I have also been thinking about offering it only on lower weighted items ... I am shipping a 14 lbs package this morning ... does anyone think I want to have the honor and privilege to pay for that thing to come back here out of my pocket? 

1. 15% increase in sales?  Not likely ... and to your point, an increase in Returns means one has to sell more items to recover the lost profit.

2. Free Returns may be good for low cost commodities, not antiques, collectibles, vintage and used items

3. While its very early in the program and based solely on averages, my sales are down just over 50% since June 1

4. On some items, shipping is as much or more than the item ... Free Returns means that item could be a total loss if returned

5. TRS & TRS+ status are earned levels of achievement by Sellers and accomplished over time with experience.  The loss of the Badge on TRS+ means a 10 year 100% Positive Feedback Seller will appear the same as a 1 hour old entry level new selling ID ... and that is just not right, and no offense intended to new sellers, we've all had to earn our stripes.

6. They have also changed the TRS+ badge and Seller Information area on listings in an attempt to make everyone look like eBay and not an individual business (pic below).  When I first saw the new little blue TRS+ Badge my first thought was it looked like one of those blue hospital road signs ... sorry, but that was my honest first impression ... perhaps its a precursor to the venue being taken to the ER in hopes of being resuscitated ...

[plumbingspecials]

mr_lincoln
Last week I had 30 sales over the weekend with my normal return policies in place. I switched to free returns and I have 17 orders this weekend.  According to eBay's calculations, I was supposed to see an increase in sales of up to 15%. Okay, so maybe we have to give it a little time to see that increase in sales. I will be curious to see how many of those 17 orders will have return requests after the fact, though. If returns are up by 15%, you know I will be back here complaining about it in a couple of weeks. I figure if we squeak enough, they might eventually grease our wheels, and do the fair thing for sellers.

I am so upset right now because of being extorted into this policy (not to mention eBay just sided with a liar buyer over the weekend when I wasn't here to defend my position), I should probably not be on these boards right now...

[mightymouse]

I sell in the pottery and glass categories and found after talking to a EBay rep yesterday that this would increase my sales I thought I would check the listings for myself. I found that on average (checked 5 of the biggest Categories) Free shipping was only 20% of all listings and that sales were 18% of all listings so not much help. Sellers that charged shipping sold 80 % of all listings almost the same as the listed items, so a wash. Here is the kicker listing with free returns were only 4.5% of all listings and sales were 3.65% a decrease of 19% in sales. So not only does offer free shipping hurt sales but offering Free returns hurt them even more. I am in the process of adding shipping charges to my listing over the next couple of months, but found that the rate tables suck. OH and for you math people this is just round numbers and a few item fall into the same areas.

[jeremberge-4]

In the past two weeks I literally have lost a couple hundred dollars on returns all while trying to save face and I am no big seller. The returners know the policy inside out and use it in abusive ways. I had one give me an ultimatum then spewed out the new shipping policy and used it to say now which would you rather prefer. I lost money and lost the product. Rediculous. I am definitely eliminating some produts that go up for sale..you know the ones that cost to ship. Dont know how in the long run this is gonna work out for ebay but it doesnt work out for me. And in the end that means it wont work out for ebay. Yes you will get more buyers but you will loose sellers and certain products The ones that cost money to ship which is higher costing items. Anyway lets see how it plays out. So far its not for me and I need to regroup and step back on some things. 

[grayirongolf]

 Unrealistic policy's designed to put you out of business.  It's as simple as that.

[partsgalore1]

Excellent post...

I have some of my problematic (as far as abusive returns) listings set "no returns"... my heavy items are set "buyer pays return shipping" and only my light items are "free returns"

So far I have not had any noticable change in sales for any of the 3 catagories.  In fact, the sales of the "no return" items seem stronger than usual. I really don't think buyers pay much attention to sellers return policy.... heck, we can't even get them to read our item descriptions so they buy what they actually need!

As far as eBay using extortion to pressure sellers to adopt "free returns" ... I agree, that is wrong!!!

As always, I will do what is right and what is best for my business and my reputation.

[mr_lincoln]

@mightymouse  Thanks for sharing all that info ... I agree on heavier items that Free Returns PLUS Free Shipping does not work well, period.  I had a 4 lbs item that I shipped late last week coast to coast ... in round numbers, Parcel Select = $ 21 and Priority $ 46 ... item cost $ 40.  To cover either of those shipping costs AND possibly the lower one on a Free Return and the item would be a total loss if it came back.

[mr_lincoln]

@mightymouse  They have no business making that unsupported and unsubstantiated statement about a 15% increase in sales.  I don't believe it so show me the numbers.  Sales here or anywhere is subjective and a lot depends on what one is selling.  They did NOT look at ALL your items and categories and do exhaustive research to come up with that amount ...

They've been making the 11% increase in sales statement about Free Shipping too for quite some time ... I dabbled in a little of that to no affect ...   

[designerfashionsforlessboutique]

eBay will profit by not having to refund Final Value Fees for partial refunds.  eBay knows very well that this policy will most likely attract fraudulent buyers.  When you get an old piece of clothing or a box of rocks back in the mail (at your expence) you can return 50% of the cost but you will not get a refund on your final value fees.  Yep, now I am paying people to steal my items.  I will go ahead and give up the badge and 10%.  As soon as I can sell off these items I am out.  Good luck eBay, I want to see how you succeed when you loose your Top Rated Sellers