Scammed out of $400 thanks to eBay

[leedx1]

On November 29th, I sold an iPhone 7 for $400 and received an instant payment. Shortly after the buyer paid, I received a message from him, asking me to ship it to a different address than what was on the order. On the same day, I called eBay customer service and asked if this was okay to do. The representative assured me that if the buyer requests me to ship the item to a different address, it is okay to do so, because "we have record of the messages between buyers and sellers, so if the buyer makes a claim, we have the message from the buyer asking you to ship to the new address, so you are still protected". I was smart enough to record this call, so I have proof. I figured okay, eBay would know best, I'm good to ship this item. I shipped the item to the new address, and what would you know, the next day I get an email from PayPal that the buyer is trying to reverse the transaction because it was "unauthorized". I responded to the case, saying that the buyer requested me to ship it to the new address. PayPal closed the case in the buyer's favor because I didn't ship it to the address on file, HOWEVER, I did my due diligence and contacted eBay to make sure it was safe, and they told me it was, so how was I supposed to know better? So now, I'm out $400. I even tried to have USPS intercept the package and they delivered it anyway.

I spent about 6 hours on the phone with eBay and PayPal yesterday, and I have had a 3 way call with myself, eBay and PayPal, and the eBay rep was arguing with the PayPal rep, telling them they need to return my money because they have the message from the buyer. Of course, PayPal won't budge, and eBay says they can't do anything because the case is with PayPal. 

I've filed a complaint with BBB, I tried to have USPS intercept the package but they didn't, I've spoken to multiple eBay reps that think it's okay to ship to a different address if a buyer requests it, I've spoken to so many supervisors and I am getting nowhere. I found out that I shipped it to a freight forwarder, so my last resort is to get ahold of them tomorrow as soon as they open to see if they can stop the package from going overseas. Is there anything else I can do?!

[nowthatsjustducky]

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

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@phcd1 wrote:

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

As you found out, you may be covered with Ebay but not with Paypal.  You must ship to the address on Paypal.

Sorry you had this loss.

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YOu know I can totally feel for you.  If you called, you would think that information applied to Paypal as well.  

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Why, they have nothing to do with each other? They are seperate companies.

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Because even though they are separate companies, a lot of people still think Ebay owns them.  And they are very inter tangled, most payments on this site are by Paypal.  So it is very easy for any seller to think that when Ebay says, you are covered, that is a blanket covering~that it applies to Paypal as well. 

Further there have been many threads on the Board that have the seller in the exact postion of the OP, they were told by Ebay CS that they would be covered, and then the buyer files with Paypal, and they are not covered.

That is why posters have been saying that Ebay could add, but you need to check with your Payment processor.  Because the OP is not alone in this situation. 

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And if they were truly independent of each other, PayPal would build better customer goodwill by giving eBay the finger with their insistance on PP holds at their whim.  Or conversely, eBay would still be allowing ProPay and Skrill as payment options; because even though hardly anyone ever uses those, they would at least be a way for sellers to give themselves a little protection on local pickup items; because even though you can accept cash, you also have to have an authorized online payment available.  And either ProPay or Skrill would have satisfied that requirement.

[castlemagicmemories]

But CS says you are covered if you have a buyer request to change address message.

[missjen831]

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@phcd1 wrote:

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@leedx1 wrote:

...Obviously, I now realize eBay and PayPal are seperate companies, and they have seperate policies. However, the two companies integrate heavily together, and my opinion is that if a customer calls an eBay CSR, the CSR should be trained to look at that specific eBay purchase and how the transaction was completed to say "I see here you used PayPal, you would be covered under eBay protection, but PayPal might have a different policy, please check with them"....

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Why? It goes beyond eBay and PayPal, there might be a credit card company in there too. You want eBay CS reps to state the CC company policies too? This has nothing to do with eBay and those other companies can change policy at anytime. Like I said, I'm sorry this happened, but it's black and white. Your asking for something that is not provided by the eBay seller protection. Heck, eBay barely pays for their OWN policies let alone others.

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I agree with you but I do think that customer service has a moral and ethical obligation to inform the seller that the protections only apply to eBay and that the seller should also inquire with PayPal and/or their internet merchant processor because they may have different rules. The real issue here, in my opinion, is that the separation of eBay and PayPal is still so new that it's not crystal clear to all that they have separate policies. And with PayPal being the official payment processor is only complicates things more. New sellers especially don't understand that when selling on eBay they are dealing with a venue and a payment processor--2 different companies with 2 different policies and as such, are not aware that they need to read 2 separate seller protection policies. And because of the lack of a clear distinction between the 2 companies and their policies and the way customer service talks, these poor sellers are calling eBay for advice and basically eBay is holding their hand as they walk the plank! They are being told that it is safe to ship to another address and eBay will cover them but with NO mention of PayPals policy which says otherwise. No mention of the credit card company's rules--which as I said earlier, we can't expect eBay employees to know those policies and eBay doesn't want their employees quoting those policies because then they will have to be held accountable when a seller suffers a loss because an eBay rep incorrectly quoted a PayPal policy. Also ebay reps can hardly grasp eBay policy correctly, throwing PayPal policy at them is asking for trouble IMO. What eBay needs to do is train their reps better & have them start telling these sellers they are covered ONLY in the event of an eBay dispute and  to inquire with PayPal about PayPals policy before they ship to another address. They don't need to recite PayPal policy or tell them one way or another if they will be covered there. They just need to make sure the seller is aware that they are covered by eBay in the event of an eBay dispute and that a PayPal dispute and a credit card chargeback are another story and the seller should contact PayPal for advice before shipping.

[phcd1]

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

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@phcd1 wrote:

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

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@phcd1 wrote:

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

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@phcd1 wrote:

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

As you found out, you may be covered with Ebay but not with Paypal.  You must ship to the address on Paypal.

Sorry you had this loss.

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YOu know I can totally feel for you.  If you called, you would think that information applied to Paypal as well.  

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Why, they have nothing to do with each other? They are seperate companies.

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Because even though they are separate companies, a lot of people still think Ebay owns them.  And they are very inter tangled, most payments on this site are by Paypal.  So it is very easy for any seller to think that when Ebay says, you are covered, that is a blanket covering~that it applies to Paypal as well. 

Further there have been many threads on the Board that have the seller in the exact postion of the OP, they were told by Ebay CS that they would be covered, and then the buyer files with Paypal, and they are not covered.

That is why posters have been saying that Ebay could add, but you need to check with your Payment processor.  Because the OP is not alone in this situation.  

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There are 1000's of sellers in eBay "situations" everyday that are "not fair", but it's up to the person (buyer or seller) to read the policies. I'm VERY pro seller as you know, but the protection the OP is looking for is only offered by PayPal, not eBay. If there was no PayPal involved (think merchant direct payment for example), and the buyer did the same thing with his/her credit card, would you expect the credit card company to cover it because eBay said they were "Good to go"? I think not.

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Totally agree it is up to the seller to read the policies and be aware but many just call CS and go by what they say.  And actually you touch on a point I was considering, Ebay does not have anything to do with the payment, so PP or the credit card policies would be the only ones that matter.  As you say, CC is not going to cover it, either., if their customer challenges it.  I don't know when that Ebay protection for a message of address change would kick in.

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Winner, winner, Chicken dinner. ONLY for an INR claim.

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Well, ok, so only in that limited situation.  Then statement would be, if you have a message from the buye asking for an address change, you are only covered  in the event of an INR, item not received, claim.  Check with your payment processor.

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OK, I'll agree with that. But on the same note, eBay CS Rep's can many times barely understand or speak English, so I have no idea how that will come out.  😉

[castlemagicmemories]

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@leedx1 wrote:

@missjen831 @callahanmagic @castlemagicmemories

Wow I am surprised at how much this blew up.

Obviously, I now realize eBay and PayPal are seperate companies, and they have seperate policies. However, the two companies integrate heavily together, and my opinion is that if a customer calls an eBay CSR, the CSR should be trained to look at that specific eBay purchase and how the transaction was completed to say "I see here you used PayPal, you would be covered under eBay protection, but PayPal might have a different policy, please check with them". That's all it would have taken, 5 extra seconds for a CSR to give me that info and I would have investigated further with PayPal and this whole mess wouldn't have happened. There are honestly way too many rules and exceptions, and I'm learning now that neither eBay or PayPal have the seller's best interest in mind.

Luckily, these last couple days I have not left one path untaken. After speaking to about 17 different people at Aramex, I was able to get the shipment held and the buyer's account closed. We are still working on getting the phone back to me, but at least I know it's not going to the scammer. I'm confident that one way or another, I will get this resolved. Thank you all for your helpful insight. I think this problem is much bigger than $400. eBay needs to do better. Sellers place a lot of trust in eBay's hands, and I think it's the CSR's responsibility to inform their customers as much as possible. I feel so bad for all of the people that are scammed on this website every day.

That's wonderful, OP~in the debate on when that policy would kick in, I neglected this post.

So glad you were able to get them shut down, with the phone coming back to you.  $400.00 is a lot of money.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!  Do the happy dance!

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[chipper01work]

You know some of the blame probably rests with us here as a posting community. There have been tons of threads in the past about requests to ship to an alternate address at the buyers request. Inevitably in just about every one of those threads the question has arose "why can't we be covered, eBay can see the messages the buyer sent"? It seems eBay has attempted to adopt that approach based upon those cries but it was not thought through as much as it should have been so now eBay has been advising new sellers to do this with complete disregard for other potential consequences. eBay and Paypal need to be on the same page and if that means eBay reverses course on this fledgling "policy" so be it.

[phcd1]

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@missjen831 wrote:
...Also ebay reps can hardly grasp eBay policy correctly, throwing PayPal policy at them is asking for trouble IMO. ...

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As have I just stated, and I agree.

[leedx1]

Now this is hilarious. Trying to sell another iPhone, and this is the buyer's address:

Confirmed

If you google that address, it is a freight forwarder. Reading on PayPal's policy, it states: "If you originally ship the item to the recipient's shipping address on the Transaction Details page but the item is later redirected to a different address, you will not be eligible for PayPal Seller Protection."

Seriously? They show the address as confirmed, but expect the average user to investigate the address to find out that it's a freight forwarder and if they ship it to that "confirmed" address they're not covered? This is a joke.

Now, I know this is another scammer because their payment shows as Pending in PayPal and they sent me a message saying the money is in my account and I can ship it out now. Obviously the payment will never complete and they are trying to get me to ship it out.

[nowthatsjustducky]

I believe that warning only applies if you initially ship to the payment address, but before it gets there, you somehow get it diverted to another address.

[leedx1]

Ahhh, I see. That is still unclear though, they make it sound like if you ship it to the buyer, and the item does not end up at the destination, which with a freight forwarder it wouldn't, then you're not protected.

[southern*sweet*tea]

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@leedx1 wrote:

Ahhh, I see. That is still unclear though, they make it sound like if you ship it to the buyer, and the item does not end up at the destination, which with a freight forwarder it wouldn't, then you're not protected.

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Redirected means that the package would somehow get redirected during transit.

Once the item gets to the freight forwarder, you're done. The buyer has lost all MBG privileges through Ebay.  They cannot claim INR, because the package shows delivered to the forwarder. They cannot claim SNAD, because they had the package forwarded.

They still have protection through Paypal in case of a SNAD, but if that were to happen, the BUYER would have to pay return shipping with tracking to you in the States, and that in most instances is very expensive.

[starroute-us]

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

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@phcd1 wrote:

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

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@phcd1 wrote:

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

As you found out, you may be covered with Ebay but not with Paypal.  You must ship to the address on Paypal.

Sorry you had this loss.

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YOu know I can totally feel for you.  If you called, you would think that information applied to Paypal as well.  

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Why, they have nothing to do with each other? They are seperate companies.

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Because even though they are separate companies, a lot of people still think Ebay owns them.  And they are very inter tangled, most payments on this site are by Paypal.  So it is very easy for any seller to think that when Ebay says, you are covered, that is a blanket covering~that it applies to Paypal as well. 

Further there have been many threads on the Board that have the seller in the exact postion of the OP, they were told by Ebay CS that they would be covered, and then the buyer files with Paypal, and they are not covered.

That is why posters have been saying that Ebay could add, but you need to check with your Payment processor.  Because the OP is not alone in this situation.  

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There are 1000's of sellers in eBay "situations" everyday that are "not fair", but it's up to the person (buyer or seller) to read the policies. I'm VERY pro seller as you know, but the protection the OP is looking for is only offered by PayPal, not eBay. If there was no PayPal involved (think merchant direct payment for example), and the buyer did the same thing with his/her credit card, would you expect the credit card company to cover it because eBay said they were "Good to go"? I think not.

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Totally agree it is up to the seller to read the policies and be aware but many just call CS and go by what they say.  And actually you touch on a point I was considering, Ebay does not have anything to do with the payment, so PP or the credit card policies would be the only ones that matter.  As you say, CC is not going to cover it, either., if their customer challenges it.  I don't know when that Ebay protection for a message of address change would kick in.

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Ebay protection for an *unwritten* policy never really kicks in, because the buyer can open another case via PP or via their CC when they lose the ebay case based on a message.

The buyer would win any INR opened via PP/CC based on the seller shipping to some other address.

[theheadphonecompany]

True - eBay provides ZERO protection ... for %99.9 of what goes on, on their platform.

The issues with that are ...

1) eBay likes to bve judge jury and exocutioner ..... but they arent impartial - that makes the entire transaction just a sham. Would you buy fruit/meat etc (items that need a scale) from a place that had its finger on the scale? I know I wouldnt.

Buyers  can and do say ANYTHING and eBay just sits in the corner and smiles, handing out baloney lines and letting the fraud roll on.

2) eBay has hidden rules - just ask the blues. Would you buy a house or a car with HIDDEN clauses? I wouldnt - and in fact thats why there are lemon laws for cars - for just those reasons

3) If "you are going to mandate the rules be XYZ" then be fair - is that so hard? Why cant there be parity between the 2 parties? Arent they (as they told the court in France "just a venue" or was that a lie?). Even if today they are a "managed marketplace" does that mean - just to grow THEIR platform - they can sanction theft from sellers?

The point here is - eBay is (generally) unethical and dishonest in its business dealings when it comes to sellers. THAT is not a healthy enviroment to grow a business.

"I know in either side in a dispute believes they have proof the reality is most of said proof is not verifible on an online platform-most everything can be faked" ... ok so let me ask you, do you put "the same weight" on the words of a seller whos been onsite for 10 years with thousands of positive feedbacks in the same way you would with a new buyer with 13 feedbacks?  If I was a betting man and this was horse racing (or anything else with odds) Id bet on the long time established seller, not the new buyer - but that of course is LOGIC - and theres no place for that on eBay.

The eBay and Paypal are different companies is the classic game of good cop/bad cop - and most sellers DONT know that. They have you 6 ways come Sunday - and you can even win a case on eBay and loose it on Paypal - its a rigged card game. Better off you play poker in a sleazy basement in Chinatown with the Triads (you may actually win there) .... its the same game ....

[leedx1 · Accepted solution]

Somehow, some way, I'm happy to report the phone is back in my possession from Aramex. So many Aramex reps told me it wasn't possible and "we don't stop or return shipments" but persistance was key. Don't take no for an answer. Hopefully others will see this thread and learn from my experience!

[nowthatsjustducky]

Score one for the good guys.

Still, for next time...  Witnessed.  😄