SELLERS - Part of The Problem with Ebay?

[goldguy22k]

OK, so I am using what could be considered an inflammatory style in the title, but  am looking for rational discussion as I am pointing out issues and places where there could be improvement.  There is no "quick fix" solution - just things buyers should do or do better.   So offering this up as insight, from a buyer's perspective.   So yeah, if you want to look at my feedback or go ahead and make assumptions or attacks, I guess that is your "right."  Sigh.  But I am just offering insight in hopes a few other sellers might learn from my experience as a buyer. 

Recently, I needed to replace an item that I use frequently.  So being an ebay seller too, I came here looking to buy.  I had in my mind an amount I was willing to pay and searched out recent sales and confirmed I was in the right ball park. Adjusted my amount a bit.

So I entered my search criteria and ebay's algorithm returned 53 items.  On closer inspection 19 items (36%! )  were irrelevant. (....and some say there is "throttling?" )    The irrelevant items were items associated with what I wanted but not the exact item.  (I used an exact name/info search)  So down to 34 listing to consider.

Looking further, about half had prices that were 50% or more higher than the average of recent sales and most of these were BIN with no BO associated.  So I looked at the remaining 17 closely.  This is where the "fun" begins. 

Now what follows is included should anyone wish to understand what a buyer "sees" and experiences.  

So the fun is that HALF of the listings were grossly deficient!  I am looking at used items and:

• seller posts a stock photo of a new item?
• sellers posted 1-2 pictures that are blurry and don't show the condition.
• sellers have zero or scant description - perhaps relying on the LONG ebay included "catalog" information?
• Listing unclear as to what essential items were included.
• sellers failing to follow ebay policy of disclosing all flaws, etc.
• Almost none reported on the history of the item

It sure appears as though the scant info provided would leave one WIDE opening to claims of NAD since descriptions are weak.  Yeah, I know, it doesn't matter in a SNAD case, buyer always wins, but is this a reason to not show the condition or an adequate description?  Is this what sellers have defaulted to under the ebay policy?  Is this acceptable?

So I ended up sending out 7 emails requesting specific information, additional pictures, etc.  I am happy to report that I got 3 replies and those were fast and responsive sellers.  {Wish I could have rewarded each of those three with a sale. } But three others - nadda. One seller promised to provide pictures the next day and failed to follow through.

One of these "no reply" sellers had their listings sell for well less than I would have paid.  I guess I should have done what most would do, buy cheap and file a SNAD if I was disappointed.  But sigh, I have a conscience and just don't work like that.

Oh and there was one seller, with just 3 feedback, who listed scant info and a stock photo.   (That in a category known to be trolled by scammer.)   Sure looked like a potential scam case waiting to happen.

Then of course I had to go in and look at feedback scores of sellers. One with 95% FB most would have passed by, but it was a low volume seller with a Neg from ONE remorse buyer.  Then there was the seller with 1,000s of FB & a rating under 98% and hundreds of Negs for INR & inappropriate behavior (pass).

So in the end, I saw an item that was in great shape but missing a few essential pictures.  Got a FAST reply from the seller with extra info and pics.  Had a few more email exchanges and ended up buying from a responsive and helpful seller!  YEAH!  They do exist! 

OK, so someone is going to retort - "Hey, you got your item and paid what you want, what is there to complain about!"  That is NOT the point of this post.

The point is that in doing what was needed to insure I avoided a "case" (doing the DD noted on these forums)  I spent over 3-hours in the buying process!  So part of the point is: what other buyer is going to spend that time and effort?  

So it is pretty easy to see how disputes arise and how a casual buyer might easily get into trouble.  Most of which appears to be avoidable by better listing practices, being responsive to buyers, etc.

Now this is generally my experience when I go looking for used items on ebay.  It is time consuming and frustrating and I can see why it might turn off other buyers.

Maybe ebay could create a peer review panel of experts to coach sellers when these kinds of deficiencies occur?  But less than stellar selling practices appear to be wide-spread.

I dunno - all fwiw!  

OK, now flame away with the personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.  Sigh

[castlemagicmemories]

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@missjen831 wrote:

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

I have bought here heavily for twenty years.  In the beginning, with nary a problem.  As others have said, the longer you are on ebay, the more you are aware that the frequency of these issues is increasing and that is discouraging buyers.  That does not mean you have changed, that does not mean that you have made bad decisions.  The frequency of being disappointed, having to take pictures and brace yourself for the seller's reaction is alarming.  I have had many wonderful transactions on Ebay, made some great friends, and it's been great.  I don't like negativity either.  I prefer positivity~and I care about what happens to Ebay and the good sellers that are here.  That's what this OP is trying to do.  Somehow it has always been more acceptable when posts like this are from sellers as buyers.  It's sad that even in the OP, the OP fully expected to be flamed for what he said.

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The OP is a seller and nobody flamed him here so I'm not sure what the bolded part means?

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Jen, I didn't address part of your post.  I apologize.

I knew the OP was a seller but did not take that into account.  I stand corrected.

The OP's thread, and my posts, which may be thought to be offensive and may be fervently wished to just go away, are not meant to offend anyone.  That was not his intention nor has it ever been mine.  Posting that sellers who come here for help won't find it may not be true, as they may come across these posts and realize the importance of posting accurate listings, especially since they will bear the cost of a SNAD return~so this might really be helpful to them.  While the app may be problematic, it may not take more than a few words to alert the buyer to damage.  The OP found 50% in defective listings~a signficant number of possible SNADs.   

[kh-vince]

Hello everyone,

This thread is getting a bit heated.  Please remember that it’s fine to disagree with others, but discussion should always remain courteous and respectful.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[missjen831]

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

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@missjen831 wrote:

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@castlemagicmemories wrote:

I have bought here heavily for twenty years.  In the beginning, with nary a problem.  As others have said, the longer you are on ebay, the more you are aware that the frequency of these issues is increasing and that is discouraging buyers.  That does not mean you have changed, that does not mean that you have made bad decisions.  The frequency of being disappointed, having to take pictures and brace yourself for the seller's reaction is alarming.  I have had many wonderful transactions on Ebay, made some great friends, and it's been great.  I don't like negativity either.  I prefer positivity~and I care about what happens to Ebay and the good sellers that are here.  That's what this OP is trying to do.  Somehow it has always been more acceptable when posts like this are from sellers as buyers.  It's sad that even in the OP, the OP fully expected to be flamed for what he said.

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The OP is a seller and nobody flamed him here so I'm not sure what the bolded part means?

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Jen, I didn't address part of your post.  I apologize.

I knew the OP was a seller but did not take that into account.  I stand corrected.

The OP's thread, and my posts, which may be thought to be offensive and may be fervently wished to just go away, are not meant to offend anyone.  That was not his intention nor has it ever been mine.  Posting that sellers who come here for help won't find it may not be true, as they may come across these posts and realize the importance of posting accurate listings, especially since they will bear the cost of a SNAD return~so this might really be helpful to them.  While the app may be problematic, it may not take more than a few words to alert the buyer to damage.  The OP found 50% in defective listings~a signficant number of possible SNADs.   

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I don’t think anyone here is offended. I’m certainly not. 

The problem here is that some cannot let things go and keep harping on bad abusive sellers every chance they get. They make inflammatory statements that cause a reaction out of posters who normally would have stayed quiet. Some of us are tired of how threads are constantly used as a  platform & hijacked and derailed. I know why this thread was started. It was meant to be a productive discussion & try to make change here. But as usual it’s been hijacked and derailed because people can’t let things go and have to harp on the bad when there is still a lot of good here. We don’t need to make every thread turn into a discussion about bad sellers and bad buying experiences. 

Just because someone disagrees, it doesn’t mean they are offended. I think that needs to be pointed out. 

[tunicaslot]

It is your right to stay or leave - but tif we stay then don't be surprised to have those same bad experiences mentioned in multiple threads. How about making this positive and post about a wonderful buying experience?

I've had two great ones in the last week - fast shipping, items as described and wonderful feedback before I posted mine. There is bad and good in everything we do - to keep focusing on only the negative instead of all the positive makes for an unhealthy atmosphere for everyone.

[totoro470]

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@tunicaslot wrote:

Easy solution  - free returns mandatory - just like Amazon .Now the good sellers would then leave in droves and the bad sellers will either get kicked off or quit because they can't afford all the returns.

Many here seem to forget - many of these listings are put up using the mobile app - like Mercari, Posh and other sites - the app asks for the bare minimum. Sellers don't know to add more and often times can't.

Buyers want to change Ebay so they are satisfied - sellers feel there are too many restrictions and want less - it's a no win situation. For all it's flaws - Ebay has made changes and back stepped on others due to both buyers and sellers speaking out. I don't see that on any other platform I sell on.

Add to that - there are umpteen venues to make purchases on - and I've tried to tell those with a high rate of SNADs that they may be best looking elsewhere - but they refuse - despite the fact that these collector groups are all over the net and sellers are abundant - they know exactly how to describe as they are collectors themselves and these people would be much more satisfied knowing they are buying from someone who know what they are talking about. If you don't help yourself - then often times a buyer is the problem.

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What ebay wants is to become Amazon, often times at the cost of seller's profits and its own identity (as a used item marketplace). We have to consider that both companies can't and shouldn't offer the same services. Things like forcing free returns would certaintly thin out some of the bad sheep but it also hurts the good ones as well- especially in categories like clothes and electronics. It also goes against the nature of "used" items. What makes ebay different than Amazon? Namely that it was originally the place to go for used items and used items inherently carry some uncertainty with them- even if the seller describes the best they can. This is even harder on ebay than a garage sale or flea market because buyers can't inspect the items themselves, people also generally don't expect to return used items anywhere else (except for ebay). Buyers expect dozens of pictures for an item only worth $10 and a desription that covers every single flaw, something that just takes too much time for it to be profitable. So, what happens when you force things like free returns on all used items? It leads to lower profits for anyone selling used items. A massive amount of items that will inevitably be returned for various reasons and it also leads to abuse. Forced free returns would be an absolute killer for some stores, even if they are actually good sellers (we aren't all big like Walmart and a bad streak is enough to kill our store).

Another difference between Amazon and ebay is that Amazon is mostly more hands on than ebay, ebay is more like a conduit for buyers to find sellers. Amazon does have some independent retailers but many aspects of it are more similar to Walmart (where they buy from those retailers and store it in their warehouses). Ebay wants to be like Amazon but it likes to put all the responsibility on the seller without much of a buffer. Each small seller has to be their own customer service rep, packer, and lister all rolled in one. Ebay rarely protects us from things that they should protect us from, all responsibility is on us. On top of this, people come to ebay and expect more from the seller than they do on Amazon. They expect us to be able to cater to their every whim as if we were a huge corporation- all on top of also expecting a peronalized experience: expecting free discounts, asking for specific details, giving unwanted offers, and expecing a better packing job than any major corporation provides.

-It's not that I'm against free returns, I've already got them enabled, my issue is with ebay expecting more and more from us while also tightening the noose on our profits. Ebay cut the top rated discounts in half and various other new policies are constantly making things harder to turn a profit on (like free returns). I personally know dozens of people that quit ebay to make more money at flea markets- the fees are simply too high on ebay and the headaches are too many. Things only seem to get worse every year, people will keep leaving and more Chinese sellers will take their place. All this because ebay thinks it can rival Amazon (which it's failing at).

My suggestion:  ebay really needs to do is embrace the idea of being a flea market/garage sale. This means, stop punishing people for selling used items and stop pushing things like guaranteed delivery and free returns- things that give large full time ebayers/companies an advantage over small sellers.

[castlemagicmemories]

With all due respect, I believe that posts that contradict the OP naturally lead to posts that bolster the OP's opinion.  The stand that it is the buyer's fault inevitably brings out those who know that is not always true, as it has in this thread and as it has in all those other threads that you refer to.

What you see as the bad abusive sellers posts may be in response to the bad, abusive, scamming buyers posts.  A balanced viewpoint, but I know that may not be acceptable.   It's the seller's board, not appropriate, go away. 

[castlemagicmemories]

I agree.  I don't think Ebay should be another Amazon.

But free returns were already here in the MBG.  I understand some buyers file false SNADs, and that is wrong.  But the MBG protects the buyer from SNADs by having the seller pay for the return shipping in these cases.  

If buyers make mistakes when they buy, then that should be on them~just not for something that isn't their fault. 

[ersatz_sobriquet]

I see a lot of threads derailed by the same people over and over again, imho, not directed at you, tuniscalot. 

I believe that with sellers being responsible for shipping costs both ways on even false snad returns, the pendulum has swung far enough. Anymore, and sellers might truly leave in droves.I suppose we can all keep marking the prices up on other items to pay for those that think they are entitled to free returns even when the listing states buyer pays return shipping. The problem with that is, the good buyers are paying for the false snad returns of the bad buyers...who wants to pay more for items because somebody else claimed a false snad? 

[castlemagicmemories]

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@tunicaslot wrote:

It is your right to stay or leave - but tif we stay then don't be surprised to have those same bad experiences mentioned in multiple threads. How about making this positive and post about a wonderful buying experience?

I've had two great ones in the last week - fast shipping, items as described and wonderful feedback before I posted mine. There is bad and good in everything we do - to keep focusing on only the negative instead of all the positive makes for an unhealthy atmosphere for everyone.

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This isn't a discussion of great buying experiences, according to the OP.  

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[tunicaslot]

Ebay doesn't want to become Amazon - if they did - small sellers would have been gone long ago. They needed to diversify with the Big Box to stay competitive - but the uniqueness of Ebay and it's small seller base is what Ebay was made of and they will continue to encourage small sellers to sell here.

As I've said - many of the changes here are due to changes in the buying habits of the public in general. Many area sites - buyers can actually go and see the merchandise, a multitude of other platform are out there to buy from as well as social media groups which are springing up everyday. Big $$$ runs thru some of these groups - between members as buyers and sellers as the expertise is there. They may not be able to visually inspect things - but due to the expertise of another collector - they feel more secure purchasing items they themselves haven't inspected.

The old generation is cleaning out - the new generation wants tech more than grandma's antiques. The new generation wants everything yesterday and the ability to purchase and sell at their finger tips. The down side - descriptions may not be seen - or read - apps do not have the selling forms we have on a PC - so less pictures and desciptions. Not only that - like texting - to many the less work they have to do - the better - so to them what they have as a description is sufficient. It makes it bad for both buyers and sellers - but it ain't going back to the old days so we just have to put up with it.

[numismaticsource]

In part alot of what you are saying may be true. 

However, a vast majority of buyers DO NOT, CANNOT, or refuse to read the item descriptions and loook at the photos. 

I take alot of time on all my listings to outline the terms, problems with the item, and post clear photos. And still I get, returns from buyers claiming "Oh, I didn't read that part, or "Oh , I didnt see that". 

Buyers are lazy because they know that they can make upo any stupid reason for returning an item, and eBay and PayPal will side with them. 

 So it is not all the sellers fault. Some buyers need to be more honest, read, look, and ask questions.

[tunicaslot]

I agree with you - there are bad buyers and bad sellers - and there have been for as long as Ebay has been Ebay. I've had more problems in the past 3 yrs than I ever had before - but even those problems are a small % of my sales here. I had a return req today - size isn't right - despite meaurements in the listing - but these things happen - I'm not going to pout over it for the next month. I'll get a couple of more good sales to offset it and put it behind me.

[tunicaslot]

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@ersatz_sobriquet wrote:

I see a lot of threads derailed by the same people over and over again, imho, not directed at you, tuniscalot. 

I believe that with sellers being responsible for shipping costs both ways on even false snad returns, the pendulum has swung far enough. Anymore, and sellers might truly leave in droves.I suppose we can all keep marking the prices up on other items to pay for those that think they are entitled to free returns even when the listing states buyer pays return shipping. The problem with that is, the good buyers are paying for the false snad returns of the bad buyers...who wants to pay more for items because somebody else claimed a false snad? 

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I had a nice response and then poof - it disappeared. My response was meant to be sarcastic. Sellers on Amazon hate the automated returns and are getting quite alot false returns. While Amazon monitors their own returns from a buyer - as far as the sellers on their boards let on - that's not the same with the 3rd party sellers. 

I've always said that a sellers and buyers history should be taken into consideration when determining SNADs and still believe that - but it puts Ebay CS in the middle as the deciding factor and Ebay doesn't want to alienate buyers. Sellers are a dime a dozen - but with so many options for buyers -  it would be in Ebay's best interest to keep as many good sellers as they can - and ditch the bad sellers and bad buyers.

Bad sellers and buyers have been here since the beginning - I've had very few dealings with either - just as I had very few problems with a seller leaving a neg because I negged him if they deserved it.

I agree with bubble - go back to charging for listings - sellers will only sell what is sellable and the rest can go to the other sites that also have a lot of junk on them. But also get rid of the MBG and let sellers and buyers handle things between them or keep the MBG for true SNADs decided by looking at the sellers and buyers track records.

[castlemagicmemories]

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@lde-94 wrote:

I recently wanted a specific style and brand of shoes.

now I could have went straight to the manufacturer, but I know folks that live next to the outlets can buy previous year stock on super sale and pass the savings onto me here.

I have now purchase the same pair of shoes for different times only to have each pair arrive not as ddescribed.

TWO were listed as new and arrived very used.  One was the wrong style and size, and one pair arrived with only one shoe, mangled beyond belief in a large envelope.

I tried to purchase a hoodie, seller listed as new, it arrived with an oil stain.

My husband needed a part for his motorcycle, he searched for 4 days before giving up and buying elsewhere due to bad descriptions, bad feedback and sellers not answering questions.

So it's not just lazy descriptions, it's the deceptive descriptions and careless sellers.

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Gerat points, and these are not problems that can be put down to using the app.  The app is not responsible for any of those things.  I would guess you are saying, Thank God for the MBG.  I don't know how many would buy here without that~to be at the mercy of the seller who may not want the true SNAD back for any reason.  If you have ever had a seller fight a return, or claim it wasn't their item you returned when it absolutely was, then you know what I mean. 

[terrycanarsky]

The OP found 50% in defective listings~a signficant number of possible SNADs.   

This keeps being mentioned as if it was a hard number which proved there was a significant overall problem with bad sellers.  And maybe it is, we have no way of knowing.  But let's review what the OP said.

• He entered a search for X.  eBay's system returned 53 results, 19 of which were irrelevant to the search parameters.  That is an eBay problem, not a seller's or buyer's. 

• Of the remaining 34, he found about half to have "higher than the average of recent sales and most of these were BIN with no BO associated".  We have no way of knowing if those prices were reasonable or were inflated.  I can tell you from personal experience on eBay that eBay's "race to the bottom" severely cuts into a seller's potential sales; an item (we just pulled) with a legitimate value of ~$100 used has been undercut to less than $20 with free shipping.  Sellers do not have to offer Best Offer though eBay has made it clear that this is its preference.   

• From there, he chose 17 to look at more closely.  He found that, in his opinion, about half of those listings - 8 or 9, presumably - were sub-par for one reason or another, some of the very reasons we have discussed here (poor photos, less than optimal titles/descriptions, etc).
• Of 7 emails sent requesting more information, he received three responses.

To this end, he states he spent over 3 hours in the above process to purchase one item.  Most buyers would likely not spend that much time doing any of this, especially after the original search resulted in such an unasked-for return.  Heck, *I* wouldn't have kept going after the original search unless I really needed something and eBay was the last resort.

I am not questioning the OP's experience or his opinion, but I do question why the generic anyone would say, "well, this happened in a miniscule sampling, therefore this is what the buyer faces every day on eBay and sellers need to step up".  Neither sellers nor buyers are all inherently bad or out to 'get' the other.  Some sellers and some buyers have few of the needed skills and knowledge to sell or list on eBay.  Some sellers and some buyers are out to defraud the other.  But to say that "sellers" are the problem is just as false as saying "buyers" are the problem.  A small subset of both are part of the problem, yes, but the larger issue is the environment which fosters the behaviour.

~M