Reporting a buyer for Return Issues -- Return Process already begun voluntarily

[ajs_coins_and_alchemy]

Looking for info on my rights as a seller regarding returns -- return accepted already because I'm screwed otherwise with MBG.

I'm not going to get into all the details, I posted about this return already. It's a $65 coin.

Buyer has been cordial, opened a return case, claiming a bogus reason regarding condition when the real problem I am nearly 100% sure he has is coloration/discoloration. Arguing the item is not as described because I said it is in "high" grade, when I show many high res, close up, even zoomed far in, pictures of the coin. He is arguing about my use of one word in the description, among the many parts of the description that indicate the condition, flaws, the fact that I'm NOT using stock photos, to look at the detailed pictures, and it's their responsibility to judge the quality, condition and grade. He is acting like he never looked at the pics or read anything in the description besides the word "high" in terms of grade/condition, and wants to argue that simple fact (he is still wrong). This is a coin, not a product in a box, reading description and looking at pics is standard in this territory, it's not whimsical buying because it "looks" or "sounds" "about right"

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So... here are the (pertinent?) facts:

-I'm a TRS, but not TRS +

-Coin shows delivered 2 days ago

-He is yet to leave feedback (he needs to wait 7 days before leaving negative/neutral, right?)

-He opened a return for WRONG ITEM SENT

-We communicated cordially, I made my case to him how it's the exact coin shown and described while acknowledging varying appearance of color, but in the same breath agreed to accept the return, and I apologized for his dissatisfaction. 

-His argument equates to a NAD case (not sure how much difference or wiggle room there is between a NAD/wrong item)

-He also tried arguing the coin I sent him is not worth the money he paid (a frivolous argument in my opinion, not sure if it even matters)

-I approved/accepted the return "voluntarily"

-He has been added to my BBL

-No communication since return acceptance (other than a message I sent confirming I accepted the return).

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I would like to report him for this return. If for no other reason than his ignorant and practically nonsensical argument.

-Does it matter that he opened a Wrong Item Sent rather than NAD? Is that reportable?

-Can I/How Can I argue to EBay that the coin is exact same coin in pics/description, and that he is arguing a single, subjective (and relatively meaningless in the grand scheme of things) word in the description (which is ridiculous)?

-Am I at risk if I report now that I can't report later a 2nd issue for same return? (If I report him for a false return, and he ends up sending me an empty box, am I unable to report that fact then or harmed in any way in my reporting abilities or fighting that case?)

-Do I gain anything by reporting the return at it's face value now? (I already accepted it because I know I'm S.O.L. if I don't)

-What rights do I have with regard to any potential neutral/negative feedback he leaves? What reasons could I get it removed for?

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If he leaves feedback, and it can't be removed, I'm going to give a cordial response and list of the facts, I think any coin buyer would understand them easily, as long as they believe me and not him, which I don't think is difficult if they look at what I do in all my other listings.

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So far, my first return has been smooth but extremely irritating and frustrating. Any info on any rights I have (beyond the fact of not having almost any rights with MBG at play) would be much appreciated.

THANK YOU!

[downunder-61]

Reporting a buyer does little at all as far as any recompense for lost costs.

If you report a buyer for abusing the MBG here:   https://spd.ebay.com/RBASellerHub

then the buyer can have their MBG rights removed if enough seller's have this problem with them and in turn report them.

As to a straight INAD - it is your word against the buyer, and eBay have no way of knowing what you sent/he got - so refund to the seller from eBay is not a likely outcome, sorry.

[ajs_coins_and_alchemy]

I've never assumed I would get a refund from EBay for the item, I'm simply talking about the cost of the shipping label. I know they talk about covering the cost of the return shipping label up to $6 in certain cases. I'm just curious if I qualify for that and how, and if there is anything I can do to increase that chance.

[sin-n-dex]

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@chapeau-noir wrote:

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@sin-n-dex wrote:

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@chapeau-noir wrote:

As far as I know, the order is indeed report THEN refund - I believe it's because the refund closes the case and you want to report on a live case. 

The rest doesn't matter, not even a little bit.  I'm sorry.   Trying to argue that you sent the item your buyer is disputing boils down to a 'he said/she said' scenario - eBay does not know what you sent, nor what your buyer received and photos make no difference.  Basically MBG rules all. 

This is not going to ruin your reputation and you're certainly not alone in this kind of frustrating situation - I've been through it a few times both here and on Etsy down through the years.

As for any neg - a considered response NOT calling out your buyer but reassuring future buyers that you stand behind your items and have good CS is IMHO the best recourse.

My advice is to simply take the return, refund and move on. 

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nah, order doesn't matter. I can go into my sales history and find any single transaction and "report buyer". I reported one after the case closed on an INR, and the case was closed, but I went to sales history and was able to report it anyway.

The reason you would report after the case is closed, is because then you know the outcome. If you report on an open case you haven't actually refunded the buyer yet (and if you choose not to, that greatly changes the outcome of the case, which suggests to me it won't be looked into until it's closed so they can see everything that happened).

C.

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@sin-n-dex  Thanks for letting me know - I'd heard the 'report before refund' so often but so far hadn't found any firm procedure.

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I don't think there is a firm procedure, I just know you can report any buyer at any time, regardless of whether or not a case is open or not. I reported someone recently (after the case closed, but it was an INR that I won, so no refund), and I just went to the paid and shipped orders page, found it, and selected report buyer from the dropdown.

I just figure it's best to report when it's all done, but I don't think a seller has to wait until any event takes place to report, they can just go ahead and do it.

C.

[lacemaker3]

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@ajs_coins_and_alchemy wrote:

Thanks for all that info, I've been looking around and it seems like it is all over the place in terms of opinions on TRS getting neg feedback removed or not. I'm just going to be hopeful that he doesn't leave it or I get it removed if he does. I know it isn't the end of the world, but still. 

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@ajs_coins_and_alchemy, here is the eBay policy about this. They will remove negative or neutral feedback if eBay finds that the buyer's behavior was abusive (including falsely claims an item was not as described).
"Sent wrong item" is considered to be a "not as described" reason.

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-policies/seller-protections?id=4345#section4

[1786davycrockett]

Unfortunately, listing a coin as "high" grade is rather vague, and is dependent upon the individual examining the coin.

In addition, "high" grade is not one of the available grades recognized by PCGS and NGC -- both long established coin grading businesses.

You may be better off grading your coins in the established manner, and thus avoiding further NAD cases.

[ajs_coins_and_alchemy]

Thanks lacemaker3. Yeah I don't offer 30 day free returns so I don't fall under that policy then -- but we'll see. I've gotten ebay to do things that aren't covered under their policy lol.

[fern*wood]

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@ajs_coins_and_alchemy wrote:

Thanks lacemaker3. Yeah I don't offer 30 day free returns so I don't fall under that policy then -- but we'll see. I've gotten ebay to do things that aren't covered under their policy lol.

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You don't have to offer free returns to qualify, but being TRS  and offering at least 30 day returns will buyer paying the shipping qualifies for the limited protection.

[ajs_coins_and_alchemy]

Thanks, I don't offer those either. I just have the blanket no returns, rather avoid the hassle as much as possible and encourage buyers to think twice before buying and not just buy on a whim figuring if it isn't what they expect they can return it. Everything is laid out in the listings and there are no "it doesn't fit" or "it doesn't work" issues applicable to my items, so it comes down to, look at my pics and read my description, and know what you are getting before you agree to buy. If you're returning one of my items, it was for reasons out of my control, I blatantly screwed up sending you the wrong package, you are lazy/incompetent/lying ... or you used a microscope to find a flaw or something no one else in their right mind is looking for.

Some categories necessitate returns, mine doesn't. 

[ajs_coins_and_alchemy]

@1786davycrockett 

I just saw this reply now, must have skipped over it before.

You know, normally I give an approximate "accepted" grade. XF, AU, MS, BU, GEM, etc.

This coin had some small flaws, but primarily some corrosion on the reverse made grading the coin nearly impossible and probably would be a details coin.

I have never had an issue using "high grade" before for questionable grades, I used it just to attract attention in the title and threw it in the description.

To be totally honest, I know what you're saying, but I still 100% disagree with you.

I don't care what word I use to describe the grade, it is vague (intentionally) so no one can pin point a grade and say "it's not AU it's XF+" or something ridiculous... and I have 8 high resolution close up pics and SPECIFICALLY instruct the buyer it's their job to give the coin their own grade.

This buyer worked hard to either create this reason for return, or worked hard to ignore everything else in the listing. I dont know how anyone buys a coin, with exact pics of the coin in the listing (no stock photos), and ignores 8 high res images, and ignores details listed about flaws of the coin, and pics out one single vague word to argue about.

I didnt give an accepted grade because that could have been more arguable since its probably a details coin. That's why I was vague and I blame the buyer 100%, hand's down.

Oh... did I mention? His argument was "it's not 'high' grade, it's 'low' grade".

He fought one vague word with another vague word, and if in fact it's 'low grade' that should have been beyond apparent to him from the beginning and he should never have bought the coin. It was a $65 1892 V Nickel, give me a break man. You don't drop that kinda money on a V Nickel unless you have looked it over. 

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He also hasn't shipped it back yet and it's been like a week, and I now realize he gave me his phone number in the return request, and specifically cited the coin not being worth $65 and specifically requested I reply followed up by his phone number. I'm starting to suspect he was going to try to get me to communicate outside ebay and negotiate a partial refund. I dont believe he wants to actually return the coin, i think he was trying to pull a fast one on me. This return was fishy and ridiculous from the start. Who overlooks an entire listing and argues one single vague word? It was a bogus NAD from the start, an accepted grade would have probably been worse IMO as mine covers multiple grades broadly and who can claim what "high" really is.

[1786davycrockett]

In your own words:  "This coin had. . .some corrosion on the reverse {which} made grading the coin nearly impossible and probably would be a details coin."

That's probably why your buyer is arguing with your term "high" grade.  

I'd just accept the return, get the coin back, and refund the buyer.  Otherwise eBay may find in the buyer's favor, and refund the buyer, while allowing the buyer to keep the coin.  Plus you get a defect against your account from eBay. 

Not worth it.

[ajs_coins_and_alchemy]

Again, pathetic excuse. 8 high resolution images, a detailed description, and disclosures to grade the coin themselves. That's their own problem. It was not a hidden flaw. It was disclosed and shown, multiple times. Truly pitiful argument in my opinion.

I already accepted the return, as I've stated several times. I'm beginning to doubt the buyer will ever proceed with the return, if they do, I will relist it and it will sell to someone who wants it. It sold once, it will sell again.

[ajs_coins_and_alchemy]

@1786davycrockett 

FYI...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/354213431141

You go ahead and look at the listing, if you wish, and give me your opinion then. 1) would you call this coin "low" grade. 2) Would you buy this coin, after all the info and pics provided, and then dare file a return and claiming you disagree "high" grade, picking out that single word among the entire listing, and argue solely that?

(The blur around the edges of some of the images is because I used a jewelers loupe to get a better magnification in the area of interest/concern)

[1786davycrockett]

Based upon the photos from your listing, which I have examined, I would NOT purchase the coin, since I, too, don't consider it "high" grade.  

I've been selling on eBay for over 10 years, and most of the items I sell are books, magazines, stamps,  comics and so forth.   Over the years, I've learned to avoid outstandingly subjective terms, such as "high grade," "mint," "new in box," and so on, simply due to the fact that MY "high grade" or "mint" or "new in box" may not match the personalized qualifications of my buyers.

Instead, I grade conservatively, and clearly and concisely itemize the defects on each of my items, so that my buyers aren't caught by surprise when they receive the items which they have purchased from me, only to discover flaws which I had not disclosed.  I grade from "Poor" to "Fair" to "Good" to "Like New" and (rarely) "Brand New."  (Comic books are graded according to the Overstreet grading system, and stamps as MNH, NH, Used, OG, NG and so on.).   I do not use the terms "low grade" or "high grade."

While providing several photos of each item is encouraging, nothing beats a complete and honest itemized description of condition.  Photos can be deceiving; and, with cell-phones, the pictures are far too small.

That being said, have you also considered that your buyer may have made this purchase from a cell-phone, and thus was relying upon a very small photo of the coin?  We are told by eBay regularly that more and more eBay buyers are making their purchases from cell-phones, rather than computers, and that may be one of the causes of the misunderstanding between you and your buyer.  Your buyer may have seen a very small image of the coin on his cell phone, and ordered based upon your "high" grade statement.  Having received the coin, he may likely have had a clearer view of its flaws, and considered that you had mistakenly sent the wrong coin, thus opening the "wrong item received" case.  These returns are happening more and more often, due to buyers making purchases based upon tiny photos on their cell-phones.

Your eBay history indicates that you have only been selling since March of this year, and you seem to be taking this return perhaps a bit too personally.  And, as I am gathering from your replies to others, you may be considering reporting your buyer for "abusive" behavior (although you had previously stated that he had been "cordial" in his communications with you) -- all based upon a difference of opinion in the term "high" grade.  A difference of opinion, however, is NOT "abusive" behavior -- it is simply a difference of opinion.  It is definitely not cause to seek "revenge" on a buyer for a return case not in our favor.

And, as you can see, both you and I have a difference of opinion, as well.  Hopefully, that will not cause you to decide that I, too, am "pathetic," "pitiful," "bogus," "lazy/incompetent/lying," and the rest of the incendiary terms with which you have been using to defend your case.  You may discover that it reflects poorly on your future reputation as a seller.

Good luck.

[ajs_coins_and_alchemy]

Really not looking to argue it, but really not going to let half of your new points go.

Grades AU55 without the build up/corrosion on reverse. I used photograde. How the buildup effects grade, I dont know. I compared to other listings of the exact same coin, many list "high grade" instead of actual grade, most are in worse shape than mine. I don't agree with being a lemming and doing what everyone else is doing, but it was the most honest thing I could say looking at the marketing of others in similar category.

I did list all flaws/condition aspects. They were clearly in my description next to "high grade". It was a short and concise list as there was not much to evaluate. Some small wear on hair and buildup/corrosion on reverse. That is the extent of the condition, not sure what more I could list or draw attention to unless I need to paint an entire picture of a coin when there are pics provided.  I did not hide anything.

My opinion is different than yours, I respect that. I don't find your opinion or the buyer's opinion to be pathetic pitiful bogus lazy incompetent lying. I find the fact that he purchased it without checking it out to be those things, and his use of "wrong item sent" and "low grade - not worth $65" and all of that to be bogus. To pick one word out of all the pictures and description to me is bogus. I felt he was misusing the return policy, that is to me an abuse of the return policy, as he had not done his homework on the purchase before buying it. The coin was the exact coin shown and described, outside of a difference in opinion on one word, which I dont believe any coin collector should take anyone else's opinion unless it is TPG graded. 

I conduct my ebay buying/selling mostly on my phone. I have no issue with "small pictures"? Not sure how small of a picture you are insinuating on your phone.

I generally grade all of my coins conservatively. This was one of a few instances where I gave a vague grade. Maybe I should have said "High grade details". Shame on me.

Again. I don't see your argument about small pics on phones. Unless you're some how using an old style flip phone, smart phones have zoom features. pictures are not small. I don't even begin to understand this concept here, but if you say so.

I do not find the abusive nature the difference in opinion i find the return use abusive, as it was a coin that was exactly as shown, and exactly as described, other than an argument about an opinion, again, coin collectors should understand this simple principle, but I guess not?

I don't know how my selling history indicates anything? Unless you are saying i should not take my first return personally and i'm just new to this and will get thicker skin over time? That's fair, yes I take it personally, because I put actual effort into my listings in an attempt to be transparent, where many get away with opaque descriptions and stock photos and fleece buyers and it's an "accepted" practice, by even experienced "top" sellers. (My evidence was a recent post on here by a buyer buying from a top coin dealer with 86,000+ FB points and the coin was labeled BU GEM ++++ etc and the guy got an AU coin at best... and similar posts.)

I believe my reputation as a seller is fine, and yes I used "incendiary terms" in a venting manner on this forum, as I got frustrated dealing with what in my opinion was a frivolous return. You said you would never buy this coin. GOOD. Don't buy something you don't want. That's my simple point here. Look at what it is, decide if it's something you want. I don't see much excuse, especially the small pics on phone excuse escapes me. If someone can't see pics on their phone they shouldn't use their phone to buy IMO.

Thank you for your feedback.

[annadryl]

You've mentioned that the seller seems amiable, so do they leave a lot of other bad feedback? I wouldn't lose any sleep. Maybe they're just a tad dizzy or his wife is mad that when food and gas is so spendy, he's buying coins.

Also, some people seem to return half of the stuff they order or buy, just because they can. There are really no consequences at some venues. I've heard Costco takes back dead Christmas trees in January, so... some people just think like that. My neighbor bought a barbeque on impulse then took it back because his old one was just fine.