Potential problems with foreign buyers using freight forwarders......

[kathieskorner]

Two months ago I was hit with an item not received claim on a first class package shipped to a freight forwarder used by a foreign buyer.  Seems that USPS does not always scan packages delivered to freight forwarding addresses, and the tracking stopped at "out for delivery" so buyer filed INR claim.   eBay forced me to refund, and since first class mail does not come with insurance I was out the item.  Fortunately, it was not something expensive.

This weekend an item sold and a few minutes later I was advised not to ship by Paypal until they had investigated that the account was authorized.  I then saw that the buyer was from China and using a freight forwarder address in Oregon.   This would also be a first class mail shipment.    I requested that Paypal refund the buyer (one of their options), but they refuse to do so until their "investigation" is complete.   

I have until May 15 to ship, and don't want to get dinged with a late shipment.   If I don't hear from paypal by tomorrow I am going to cancel the order and refund based on the shipping address, but am concerned about a duplicate refund when paypal completes their investigation.   

What I don't understand is why foreign buyers are allowed to circumvent my wishes not to ship internationally by using freight forwarding addresses in the US, and then can still file a claim against me.  

[nobody*s_perfect]

When you ship to a freight forwarder, that is not international shipping. As a seller you are only responsible to get it to the forwarder.  USPS is supposed to scan every package delivered.  That not received claim could have happened with any buyer if USPS didn't give their package a delivery scan.

[orangehound]

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@kathieskorner wrote:

I have until May 15 to ship, and don't want to get dinged with a late shipment.   If I don't hear from paypal by tomorrow I am going to cancel the order and refund based on the shipping address, but am concerned about a duplicate refund when paypal completes their investigation.

I wouldn't worry about this ... I would do exactly as you are thinking, and if PayPal were to do a duplicate refund then just contact them.

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What I don't understand is why foreign buyers are allowed to circumvent my wishes not to ship internationally by using freight forwarding addresses in the US, and then can still file a claim against me.  

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You are not shipping internationally when shipping to a freight forwarder ... that is just your buyer reshipping the package.  If you want to reduce these events, you can go into PayPal and set it up so as it will only accept US funds.

[jeannicho22]

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@kathieskorner wrote:

Two months ago I was hit with an item not received claim on a first class package shipped to a freight forwarder used by a foreign buyer.  Seems that USPS does not always scan packages delivered to freight forwarding addresses, and the tracking stopped at "out for delivery" so buyer filed INR claim.   eBay forced me to refund, and since first class mail does not come with insurance I was out the item.  Fortunately, it was not something expensive.

This weekend an item sold and a few minutes later I was advised not to ship by Paypal until they had investigated that the account was authorized.  I then saw that the buyer was from China and using a freight forwarder address in Oregon.   This would also be a first class mail shipment.    I requested that Paypal refund the buyer (one of their options), but they refuse to do so until their "investigation" is complete.   

I have until May 15 to ship, and don't want to get dinged with a late shipment.   If I don't hear from paypal by tomorrow I am going to cancel the order and refund based on the shipping address, but am concerned about a duplicate refund when paypal completes their investigation.   

What I don't understand is why foreign buyers are allowed to circumvent my wishes not to ship internationally by using freight forwarding addresses in the US, and then can still file a claim against me.  

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I LOVE freight forwarders.  The reason is that once an item has been forwarded, the buyer loses they MBG through eBay once the item is forwarded.  You are only responsible to get a tracked delivery to the freight forwarder... That didn't happen in your first scenario... It would have been the same if it was a domestic buyer, you would have lost.  PayPal does not have such a stipulation that buyers lose their MBG once an item is forwarded, but the buyer is responsible to pay return shipping.  Once they find out how much return shipping is, they generally decide to drop it.

I don't really see the issue on selling to international buyers, and why should they be blocked?  You aren't sending it off shore and are only responsible to get it to the forwarder.  If their local post office is not scanning items as delivered, this is something to take up with the USPS customer service.

I too would probably just cancel using problem with buyer's address and be done with it.  Make certain to put the buyer on your BBL.  NO, they will not get refunded twice, and in the unlikely event this happens, give PayPal a ringy dingy and tell them to correct it.

[tamaralea]

I called PayPal to request all my payments be in US currency.  That seems to have helped eliminate these sales.

[slippinjimmy]

If I look at my shipping history for the past year I can see a few where "Out For Delivery" is the last tracking. None of these are for mail forwarders and I get a lot of foreign buyers who use them.

I ship worldwide but I still like shipping to forwarders because it's fast and easy. As far as buyers from China, over the past year or so it's gone from a rare event to now being my #1 International destination.

[mr_lincoln]

@kathieskorner   Regarding the first item you mentioned that was "out for Delivery" ... eBay has advised on their Weekly Chat that they see an attempted delivery the same as a delivered item and YOU should be able to win that case.  Bring this up on the Weekly Chat Wednesdays at 4 PM EST.  eBay needs to push USPS to scan when delivered to the address on file THAT YOU SHIPPED TO ... whether its a residence, business, freight forwarder or corner News Stand ... Sellers have no control over what address Buyers use for their PayPal accounts.

Regarding the 2nd item, simply refunding through PayPal may cause you to lose the eBay FVFs ... I would cancel in eBay due to problem with the address ...

[midwestmotoring]

Out for delivery is not the same as delivery attempted (where they then might scan it notice left, no mailbox available, etc). Delivery attempted is the same as delivery. Out for delivery is not.

I would ship the item.....as long as it is scanned delivered, Paypal has to cover you regardless as will Ebay.

I think it's just a coincidence the first shipment was only scanned "out for delivery" and not delivery done. We ship to freight forwarders daily (including the Oregon ones) and never have had an issue with this. If you really wanted to be covered, ship Priority as it comes with $100 automatic insurance....and USPS would have paid out that order where it was scanned "out for delivery" but nothing more.

[itscalledapostingid]

To solve the "out for delivery and never scanned delivered" issue do this:

Submit a missing mail search request at usps here..

https://www.usps.com/help/missing-mail.htm

They will most likely see that it's a freight forwarder and just mark it as delivered because they know  they delivered a whole pile of mail to them that day. I have had this happen a few times and that's what USPS did.

It may be too late on the closed case but you could file an appeal or call Ebay about it if they do mark it as delivered.

[ittybitnot]

I called PayPal to request all my payments be in US currency.  That seems to have helped eliminate these sales.

Not going to help you if you do not wish to deal with freight forwarders.  You would need to BLOCK payments from users without a US PayPal account. This will prevent buyers from PAYING, and you are then off the hook for shipping for 99% of these occurrences.  There are still a couple of forwarding programs that use a US based PayPal account and pay with same for their customers. 

Basically, shipping to a freight forwarder address is not problematic.  Just be sure it is the same address on the PayPal payment and it is indeed in your account verified by logging in and NOT using a link. 

Should I be a seller, it is to my advantage to ship to freight forwarders instead of using the eBay Global Shipping Program.  

An eBay  SNAD filed against a seller who used the freight forwarder will be tossed out in favor of the seller.  There is no MBG protection for items forwarded after delivery. 

An eBay SNAD filed against the seller who used the GSP, will find the seller on  the hook for providing IN ADVANCE return shipping money for a return, even if the item is not returned..  

eBay wants SALES.  They are not likely to give sellers any proactive protections that would hamper same. 

[mam98031]

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@tamaralea wrote:

I called PayPal to request all my payments be in US currency.  That seems to have helped eliminate these sales.

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All mine are in US funds.  And I ship to International buyers with US ship to addresses all the time.  It is the buyer that has to pay for any currency differences.  Ebay sellers get paid exactly what the stated price was on the purchase.   We don' t pay for any exchange rates, that is all on the buyer.

@tamaralea 

[mam98031]

I'm not sure who told you that USPS often doesn't scan delivered on packages going to a freight forwarder, but this is certainly not my experience at all.

If you ever have this "out for delivery" problem again, go to USPS.com and put a trace on the package.  That will sometimes help to get the tracking updated.  

On your new order.  You really should be just fine.  PP will periodically and randomly select a payment to investigate.  It is just part of their security procedures.  Because it is under investigation does NOT mean they saw something concerning on the payment itself.  It could have just been the luck of the draw.  Typically PP has this resolved within 24 hours.  If yours goes beyond that, give them a call and find out what the hold up is.  They should be able to tell you.

BTW, don't assume that because your buyer is international that any address you ship to in the US is a freight forwarder.  There are many reasons that someone from another country may be here for an extended period of time:  work, vacation, school, etc.

[uncseniorsportsfan]

If you ever have this "out for delivery" problem again, go to USPS.com and put a trace on the package.  That will sometimes help to get the tracking updated.  

Did that immediately upon receipt of INR - also had my local postmaster put a trace on it on his computer.   Have gotten several "updates" from USPS - however, eBay issued a refund before USPS responded the first time.    And it was the postmaster at the destination post office that told me they didn't always scan packages going to the freight forwarder if there were a lot of them at one time.   Sometimes they are removed from the loading dock before the USPS guy has had time to scan them all.  

eBay will not let me cancel the current order due to the paypal "investigation" - this first time Chinese buyer made several purchases at the same time - one seller even shipped and left automatic feedback despite the paypal hold.  

[dtexley3]

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@kathieskorner wrote:

This weekend an item sold and a few minutes later I was advised not to ship by Paypal until they had investigated that the account was authorized.  I then saw that the buyer was from China and using a freight forwarder address in Oregon.   This would also be a first class mail shipment.    I requested that Paypal refund the buyer (one of their options), but they refuse to do so until their "investigation" is complete.   

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I've shipped through the FF in Oregon multiple time.  The Post Office that services that location is very responsive when it comes to issues with items not marked as delivered.  It's happened twice and the issue was corrected promptly.  In both cases I received an email direct from the postmaster apologizing for the issue, with a lot of information about that particular FF.

I can't speak to the freight forwarders in other regions but the one in Portland, Oregon is not a problem, at least for me.

PS: I wonder why adding a "s" to the abbreviation FF causes it to get bleeped..... odd.

[mam98031]

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@uncseniorsportsfan wrote:

If you ever have this "out for delivery" problem again, go to USPS.com and put a trace on the package.  That will sometimes help to get the tracking updated.  

Did that immediately upon receipt of INR - also had my local postmaster put a trace on it on his computer.   Have gotten several "updates" from USPS - however, eBay issued a refund before USPS responded the first time.    And it was the postmaster at the destination post office that told me they didn't always scan packages going to the freight forwarder if there were a lot of them at one time.   Sometimes they are removed from the loading dock before the USPS guy has had time to scan them all.  

eBay will not let me cancel the current order due to the paypal "investigation" - this first time Chinese buyer made several purchases at the same time - one seller even shipped and left automatic feedback despite the paypal hold.  

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If USPS does update the tracking to delivered, make sure you call Ebay and try to get the INR reversed.

Call PP and see what the status of their investigation is.  That is who you need to be working with on this, Ebay can't help you on this.