My first attempted return scam in a while... but kept my peace of mind...

[duffy4444]

     I sold a used HO gauge engine 5 weeks ago for $26, free shipping. Very precisely and honestly detailed and photographed, and fully tested on my own track, working just great.

     Today, 6 weeks later, the buyer requested a return, saying, "Finally got around to opening package for family reasons. Product not "working" as advertised. Arrived disassembled. Seeking return and refund".

     Disassembled?  I know that if I sent a return label, I would receive the buyer's old disassembled engine instead of the fully working one that I tested and sent to him. The old "swaperoo" tactic that eBay no longer does anything about... What's better than getting a free replacement at the expense of me, the seller? 

     -OR-  I would receive back the same engine that I sent, but within the 6 weeks he had it, he tinkered with it and broke it, unable to be reassembled and using a flimsy "family reasons" excuse for the 6 weeks delay.

     I also know that a buyer's ultimate trump card is getting a nearly automatic CC chargeback.

     I kept my peace of mind and at least got my eBay fees back by immediately refunding him and allowing him to keep the item or dispose of it as he wished. And the buyer immediately went onto my BBL so that another stunt cannot be pulled on me again by this buyer. Case closed, and I moved on because my business model has been modified to accept that kind of loss. Even though I've been selling here for over 24 years and have enough successful sales and  positive feedback to immediately deter most scammers, it seems every year more and more regular buyers are using the site to attempt to scam even seasoned sellers because of eBay willingly turning a blind eye.

    I used to get very upset at any loss that appeared to be a scam attempt, but then realized that eBay is no longer a smart venue to sell expensive items (over $80 in my case). Those are destined for my successful use of Craigslist or a yard sale every 3 years or so that my wife and I have fun with.

    Now some may say, "Fight it!". But I've been around long enough to see the futility of fighting a relatively minor loss that I originally paid only $5 for at a large HO model railroader's estate sale, and particularly in light of the loss of the majority of common sense seller protections that eBay used to have. I've learned to keep things in perspective and accept a small loss, and yet keep my peace of mind and not throw away more money on a return label for an item that I know is not the one I originally sold. If I paid for the return shipping label and saw the scam return, in the past I would have been ticked off for days. So these days I don't even need to see the tinkered-with item or it's switched bogus replacement return at all.

    So far my procedure is working quite well for me, and I sleep quite well at night after accepting, adjusting my expectations of selling online, and adapting to both good and bad changes. If I need to vent or help other sellers, I'll do it here.

    I'm curious to hear how other sellers deal with their similar situations. Go for it!

Cheers, Duffy

[bashort]

I guess I am exactly opposite, if I think that the return reason is legit I may just issue a refund, if I suspect otherwise I am going to make them actually return the item even if it costs more for the return than it is worth

[chapeau-noir]

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@bashort wrote:

I guess I am exactly opposite, if I think that the return reason is legit I may just issue a refund, if I suspect otherwise I am going to make them actually return the item even if it costs more for the return than it is worth

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This. ^^  Sorry, no rewards for shyster tactics from me.  If someone is going to rip me off anyway they may as well work for it.

[dhbookds]

Nope...........I would make them return it....after asking what they meant by disassembled since " I certainly mailed it as shown in the phonographs, can't imagine how it would come apart".  Non accusatory tone, just mystified.   If they mailed back parts.........I'd report the buyer and then take the 50% off the refund and let Ebay deal with them when/if they squawked.   

not going into the 6 wk thing question.......

[duffy4444]

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@chapeau-noir wrote:

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@bashort wrote:

I guess I am exactly opposite, if I think that the return reason is legit I may just issue a refund, if I suspect otherwise I am going to make them actually return the item even if it costs more for the return than it is worth

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This. ^^  Sorry, no rewards for shyster tactics from me.  If someone is going to rip me off anyway they may as well work for it.

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Greetings again, @chapeau-noir!

    Some returns I'll fight as well. But not one that only cost me $5 for cost of goods + $7 shipping. My own peace of mind, avoidance of a waste of time, and willingness to move on is worth more than a loss of ~$12. I understand that for some others, it is worth the fight. And sometimes I will also bitterly fight.  BUT...

    When I get a return request like this, I have to ask myself, "Is this a hill I'm willing to die on?"  In this case, just for my pride and $12 the answer is no. I'll move on and not waste any time on an eventual and more popular cc chargeback 100% loss (which would cost me an additional $20 to fight anyway).

    About 17 years ago, I sold a book for ~$70.  Back then, $70 was worth fighting for, as I paid about 50% of that to obtain the book myself as COGS. The buyer wanted to return it, and the photos he sent me showed it looked like it was run over by a truck and violently ripped apart at the spine. I told him I would gladly refund his money upon the return AFTER I confirmed by a secret mark on one of the pages that it was the book I sent (no, it was not true, but it flushed him out). I never heard from him again. He obviously sent me photos of HIS book, which was the one he was expecting to return on a "switcheroo" scam.

    The same thing just happened to me with this current HO gauge engine bogus return request, except that I was out only $12 in today's money. Once again, perspective. This is within the "cost of doing business online" part of my business model, which has an occasional loss % already built into all the other prices of my items for sale. That way I can afford to refund on small losses, put it out of my mind, and move on without eBay getting involved (where the big waste of time comes in). 

    Thanks for all the replies so far. It's an issue that needs attention, introspection, and thought. So I brought it up.

Cheers, Duffy

[inhawaii]

My policy is generally...

Under $20: Refund. Keep the item. No need to send it back.

Over $20: Return for a refund (by the book).

[duffy4444]

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@dhbookds wrote:

Nope...........I would make them return it....after asking what they meant by disassembled since " I certainly mailed it as shown in the phonographs, can't imagine how it would come apart".  Non accusatory tone, just mystified.   If they mailed back parts.........I'd report the buyer and then take the 50% off the refund and let Ebay deal with them when/if they squawked.   

not going into the 6 wk thing question.......

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Hi,  @dhbookds  

   Reporting the buyer and getting into a losing, time-consuming squawk with eBay is pointless and not worth ~$12. Also involved is the 99.9% chance of a cc chargeback loss (plus my having to pay an extra $20 loss just to fight it). Doing the math only takes a few seconds.

     The buyer sent me a photo of a similar F7A engine with the front and rear wheel trucks dangling from the locomotive body. When I saw that, he already tipped me off to his "disassembled" scam, and I knew that addressing it would be futile. EVEN IF it was the exact item I sold him that he was trying to return, it means that within the 6 weeks he had it, he obviously tinkered with it and broke it.  I had already tested the item, putting it thru its paces, and it ran perfectly on my own track, as I also tested all the other locomotives in the estate sale.

Cheers, Duffy

[stainlessenginecovers]

I'm actually sad that you refunded the buyer. 6 Weeks is 2 weeks too long. I had a couple like this and I just 'closed' the return; no response and then bbl they go. 

Even Walmart has a return policy and it is NOT never-ending. 

[evelyb30]

Unfortunately I agree with the OP.  There's a time to fight the scammer, and a time to cut your losses and swallow your nausea.   The choice here was to lose $12, $19 or $32 if I'm going the math correctly.  There was no percentage in fighting, because if the OP lost his account would get dinged into the bargain.   

[mrfindit]

I die on every hill...  you need to accept your immortality online.

[duffy4444]

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@stainlessenginecovers wrote:

I'm actually sad that you refunded the buyer. 6 Weeks is 2 weeks too long. I had a couple like this and I just 'closed' the return; no response and then bbl they go. 

Even Walmart has a return policy and it is NOT never-ending. 

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Greetings!

     I'm not sad to have refunded the buyer. Occasional losses are already built into my business model.

    For a bottom-line loss of only $12 in the great scheme of things, I would rather spend my time on things other than a losing INAD battle -- like listing more items or spending time with you good people on this forum, which is definitely NOT a waste of my energy or time.

Cheers, Duffy

[mrfindit]

I thought at 6 weeks you could just deny the refund, and that's it.  Worst they could do was negative feedback. 

Then they could file a claim with their CC, and you would have to choose if you wanted to risk paying E-Bays fee in an unsuccessful dispute.  Depends on if you think you can win that or not.  Make them work for it.

[a_c_green]

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@duffy4444 wrote:

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When I get a return request like this, I have to ask myself, "Is this a hill I'm willing to die on?"  In this case, just for my pride and $12 the answer is no. I'll move on and not waste any time on an eventual and more popular cc chargeback 100% loss (which would cost me an additional $20 to fight anyway).

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I don't know why you would regard pushing back on a suspicious return as being a hill to die on. It's not that critical to life and limb; it's just a matter of making a lazy scammer work for his refund. 

I would simply send the return label (if necessary) and have him send back what he's claiming to have received. He knows that you will recognize a parts swap, but he does not know what you might do about it at that point, so let him wonder whether sending back something other than what he received is a hill he's willing to die on. 

[duffy4444]

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@evelyb30 wrote:

Unfortunately I agree with the OP.  There's a time to fight the scammer, and a time to cut your losses and swallow your nausea.   The choice here was to lose $12, $19 or $32 if I'm going the math correctly.  There was no percentage in fighting, because if the OP lost his account would get dinged into the bargain.   

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    Only a $12 bottom-line loss. Not exactly worth getting purple veins popping out on my raging neck.

    Perspective!

Cheers, Duffy

[fashunu4eeuh]

Hi Duffy,
Good to see a post with a measured and thoughtful outlook regarding the super-charged subject of rip-offs and returns. It can be helpful to both buyer and seller to remove the emotion out of business decisions.

I deal with with it by 1) offering Free Returns, meant to bypass the entire scenario of culpability.

And 2) i avoid listing items with high-fraud potential like pc’s, tablets, smartphones, gaming items, etc.

Been doing it this way for years (it works because i rarely get returns). Like you, i build the costs into my pricing, so i don’t sweat it. In retailing, returns and shrinkage are expected.