My first attempted return scam in a while... but kept my peace of mind...

[duffy4444]

     I sold a used HO gauge engine 5 weeks ago for $26, free shipping. Very precisely and honestly detailed and photographed, and fully tested on my own track, working just great.

     Today, 6 weeks later, the buyer requested a return, saying, "Finally got around to opening package for family reasons. Product not "working" as advertised. Arrived disassembled. Seeking return and refund".

     Disassembled?  I know that if I sent a return label, I would receive the buyer's old disassembled engine instead of the fully working one that I tested and sent to him. The old "swaperoo" tactic that eBay no longer does anything about... What's better than getting a free replacement at the expense of me, the seller? 

     -OR-  I would receive back the same engine that I sent, but within the 6 weeks he had it, he tinkered with it and broke it, unable to be reassembled and using a flimsy "family reasons" excuse for the 6 weeks delay.

     I also know that a buyer's ultimate trump card is getting a nearly automatic CC chargeback.

     I kept my peace of mind and at least got my eBay fees back by immediately refunding him and allowing him to keep the item or dispose of it as he wished. And the buyer immediately went onto my BBL so that another stunt cannot be pulled on me again by this buyer. Case closed, and I moved on because my business model has been modified to accept that kind of loss. Even though I've been selling here for over 24 years and have enough successful sales and  positive feedback to immediately deter most scammers, it seems every year more and more regular buyers are using the site to attempt to scam even seasoned sellers because of eBay willingly turning a blind eye.

    I used to get very upset at any loss that appeared to be a scam attempt, but then realized that eBay is no longer a smart venue to sell expensive items (over $80 in my case). Those are destined for my successful use of Craigslist or a yard sale every 3 years or so that my wife and I have fun with.

    Now some may say, "Fight it!". But I've been around long enough to see the futility of fighting a relatively minor loss that I originally paid only $5 for at a large HO model railroader's estate sale, and particularly in light of the loss of the majority of common sense seller protections that eBay used to have. I've learned to keep things in perspective and accept a small loss, and yet keep my peace of mind and not throw away more money on a return label for an item that I know is not the one I originally sold. If I paid for the return shipping label and saw the scam return, in the past I would have been ticked off for days. So these days I don't even need to see the tinkered-with item or it's switched bogus replacement return at all.

    So far my procedure is working quite well for me, and I sleep quite well at night after accepting, adjusting my expectations of selling online, and adapting to both good and bad changes. If I need to vent or help other sellers, I'll do it here.

    I'm curious to hear how other sellers deal with their similar situations. Go for it!

Cheers, Duffy

[lakefor94]

I normally deny the the return if it is past the 30 days and sometimes allow the buyer the opportunity to return the product on their own with my offer of looking it over. 

I just had one recently in which a novice bought a tech item. Over 2 months since delivery.  I denied the return and walked the buyer thru how to use it. Offered a refund if they sent it back.  Have not heard from them in a couple weeks.

Looks as though I still take a hit on service metrics.......

[chapeau-noir]

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@lakefor94 wrote:

I normally deny the the return if it is past the 30 days and sometimes allow the buyer the opportunity to return the product on their own with my offer of looking it over. 

I just had one recently in which a novice bought a tech item. Over 2 months since delivery.  I denied the return and walked the buyer thru how to use it. Offered a refund if they sent it back.  Have not heard from them in a couple weeks.

Looks as though I still take a hit on service metrics.......

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If it's beyond return date, I don't think you will. I've walked people through setup of old tech I've sold them before, too - it's too bad we don't get some credit for providing tech aid and troubleshooting for our customer.

[vintagecraze50]

Duffy that is a good plan with a lower level loss that you could deal with to avoid any other potential consequences. I have done that too on some items that would have been far too great a potential hassle.

[momdadsstash]

There's one unmentioned thing about why you do or do not decide on a return or refund that you consider, or know, is unjustified.

If it really gets your blood pumping and your veins distend and ruins your day, then fine, take the easy way out.

For some of us, choosing to make the buyer do some work  instead of just  rewarding them with free merchandise is just a calm, cool, decision that involves a small part of the day and doesn't involve a rise in blood pressure. 

[gotta-have-it-collectables]

That's a horrible policy 🤪

And how does this help the OP?

[duffy4444]

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@gotta-have-it-collectables wrote:

That's a horrible policy 🤪

And how does this help the OP?

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    I'm the OP.  The answer to your question is in my original statement and the many detailed replies and comments throughout this entire thread. I can't make it more clear. Some agree with me, some don't. If you don't, that's your privilege and that's ok. If you and some others want to spend an inordinate amount of time and an eventual larger loss just to "make the scam buyer do some work", that's just fine. I have other priorities... we all have our priorities and limitations.

    Some other sellers, like me, prefer to have a certain % of their business model sales prices ready to cover the inevitable smaller losses so we can move on past these speed bumps with as little damage as possible to our bottom line and our mental health. All businesses have to deal with losses in their business model, whether shoplifting in a B&M store or online scams. There is not just one model of how we deal with the sharp rise in online return scammers. That is why I asked for ideas in order to start a discussion on how others deal with scam buyers. Looks like it's been successful in that regard.

   Ebay already has effective procedures in place to deal with scam sellers. But not for dealing with scam buyers to the extent that is necessary. That's why this subject comes up in the first place. Either way, we have to deal with it in the way that allows us continue to be successful here.

Cheers, Duffy

[duffy4444]

asting manner.

    Particularly when exercising the final and nearly always successful credit chargeback even months down the road, they're in the driver's seat and don't really sweat the efforts against them. Their blood pressure is just fine. If they eventually get kicked off of eBay, their business model is to use another buyer ID account.

    Until eBay does something concrete to successfully go after scammers, sellers here just have to deal with them in the best way each seller can come up with. I'm not concerned about the scammer's blood pressure, and neither are they. I'm concerned about mine. I keep mine low with my procedure. On a big issue with the prospect of coming out ahead, I'll definitely fight. But not for a $12 bottom-line loss.

    Choose your battles.

Cheers, Duffy

[duffy4444]

Sorry... the first part of my reply on message 37 didn't post.

 -Duffy

[torfs-av-shack-2003]

I have what I suspect is a scam unfolding now. I have a buyer that purchased several Hot Wheels Star Wars vehicles. Seller sent a message at the time of purchase how excited they were that they looked so great. Now I get a message the buyer is disappointed that I switched items and shipped them poorly packaged and they had to order more from someone else. I offered a return label, buyer stated no thanks, they would file thru eBay for the return label. Buyer then stated it would be safer for them to use eBay for the return instead of my return label.

I suspect the buyer is waiting for more orders of these, then plans on returning the worst of the batch to me and however many more sellers involved.

[a_c_green]

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@torfs-av-shack-2003 wrote:

I suspect the buyer is waiting for more orders of these, then plans on returning the worst of the batch to me and however many more sellers involved.

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That may be, but at this point the ball is still in his court and there's nothing for you to do (other than put him on your Blocked Buyer List here, which I assume you have done by now). Wait and see what develops. You should probably start your own thread on this topic.

[femmefan1946]

It might be useful to Report the buyer and your suspicions to eBay (I'd suggest one of the social media accounts).

If he does order from half a dozen sellers and opens NAD claims on many of them, he may possibly find that he is not allowed to use the MBG any more.

EBay doesn't want a worse reputation for scams.

And it is eBay who get the bad name, not the sellers who are pretty anonymous.

[Anonymous]

Hello Duffy,

I believe as a seller and in person store owner the theft has gotten so out of control and people are allowing themselves to be pushovers and thats the reason why these scammers take advantage of them.  If sellers unify and call out obvious fraud it will hopefully have a impact otherwise stores will become quite unprofitable if you allow theft to go unchecked.

Fight back and don't be afraid to comment on feedback.

[hunnybunny501p68]

When I sense possible fraud I have them send photos, at least 4 and I try to speak with them on the phone.

Most don't send photos (see my negative feedback) and talking to them on the phone, it's harder for them to lie to you.  You also get a sense from their voice and conversation as to if they are sincere.  Doesn't always work, but it helps.  I always comment on negative and neutral feedback.   Sadly, ebay took away negative feedback for buyers years ago.