My first attempted return scam in a while... but kept my peace of mind...

[duffy4444]

     I sold a used HO gauge engine 5 weeks ago for $26, free shipping. Very precisely and honestly detailed and photographed, and fully tested on my own track, working just great.

     Today, 6 weeks later, the buyer requested a return, saying, "Finally got around to opening package for family reasons. Product not "working" as advertised. Arrived disassembled. Seeking return and refund".

     Disassembled?  I know that if I sent a return label, I would receive the buyer's old disassembled engine instead of the fully working one that I tested and sent to him. The old "swaperoo" tactic that eBay no longer does anything about... What's better than getting a free replacement at the expense of me, the seller? 

     -OR-  I would receive back the same engine that I sent, but within the 6 weeks he had it, he tinkered with it and broke it, unable to be reassembled and using a flimsy "family reasons" excuse for the 6 weeks delay.

     I also know that a buyer's ultimate trump card is getting a nearly automatic CC chargeback.

     I kept my peace of mind and at least got my eBay fees back by immediately refunding him and allowing him to keep the item or dispose of it as he wished. And the buyer immediately went onto my BBL so that another stunt cannot be pulled on me again by this buyer. Case closed, and I moved on because my business model has been modified to accept that kind of loss. Even though I've been selling here for over 24 years and have enough successful sales and  positive feedback to immediately deter most scammers, it seems every year more and more regular buyers are using the site to attempt to scam even seasoned sellers because of eBay willingly turning a blind eye.

    I used to get very upset at any loss that appeared to be a scam attempt, but then realized that eBay is no longer a smart venue to sell expensive items (over $80 in my case). Those are destined for my successful use of Craigslist or a yard sale every 3 years or so that my wife and I have fun with.

    Now some may say, "Fight it!". But I've been around long enough to see the futility of fighting a relatively minor loss that I originally paid only $5 for at a large HO model railroader's estate sale, and particularly in light of the loss of the majority of common sense seller protections that eBay used to have. I've learned to keep things in perspective and accept a small loss, and yet keep my peace of mind and not throw away more money on a return label for an item that I know is not the one I originally sold. If I paid for the return shipping label and saw the scam return, in the past I would have been ticked off for days. So these days I don't even need to see the tinkered-with item or it's switched bogus replacement return at all.

    So far my procedure is working quite well for me, and I sleep quite well at night after accepting, adjusting my expectations of selling online, and adapting to both good and bad changes. If I need to vent or help other sellers, I'll do it here.

    I'm curious to hear how other sellers deal with their similar situations. Go for it!

Cheers, Duffy

[lamber9347 · Accepted solution]

Well, I'm in agreement with you on not all, but several points. I just believe every seller needs to make the decision which best suits them and only THEY know what the actual cost is to them. Others are responding negatively because they are projecting how THEY would handle it. Plus, people now-a-days take everything online as a personal insult directed to them. I agree these are fights not worth the time one spends on them unless the amount is much higher than this. 

As I've aged and lost so many friends and family at an early age, I've realized there are very few things in life worth fighting over. It can all be taken away in a snap. I lost my home to a fire on NYE's January 1, 2014 but I survived. Lost family heirlooms and my childhood photos, but I quickly realized they are just "things" that will live in my memories. To fight over a $26 item, pay more money in return shipping, just to prove a point to a perfect stranger? Nope, not for me anymore. So I may be the only person perhaps, but I agree with you @duffy4444 Best of luck to you.... 

[duffy4444]

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@mrfindit wrote:

I thought at 6 weeks you could just deny the refund, and that's it.  Worst they could do was negative feedback. 

Then they could file a claim with their CC, and you would have to choose if you wanted to risk paying E-Bays fee in an unsuccessful dispute.  Depends on if you think you can win that or not.  Make them work for it.

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@mrfindit:

   No, 6 weeks does not stop the evermore popular cc chargeback, which can happen many months down the road and is an almost 100% chance of loss... And this way I pretty much avoid the negative feedback.

Cheers, Duffy

[stainlessenginecovers]

I understand that; but after 30 days the seller is given the 'option' to 'close' the case; takes 2 seconds and another 2 to add to bbl; then I never look back. Plenty of other 'real, honest' buyers to deal with. 

It's an 'almost' no lose situation (yes, if buyer opens CB on CC, the bank could come back- but I attach copy of 30 day ebay return required policy along with picture of item as sent and tracking- all on one pdf.) Have done it twice, takes 10 minutes so in this case, $72 per hour ($12 for 10 mins) is well worth it. 

Plus the enjoyment, for me, to smack down another lying scammer (I won't call them a 'buyer' if we both know that is NOT how you sent the item originally). 

[duffy4444]

   "Is this a hill I'm willing to die on" is a figure of speech to demonstrate the need for perspective in determining where an issue fits into what is or isn't worth it.

    The quote was given to Dr. Laura on her nationally-syndicated daily radio program about 20 years ago. It came from a former USMC captain to influence a person to question whether an action is worth it or not - either fighting a military battle for a hillside, or in this case doing a refund or not. This quote has really helped me keep things in perspective in my life, and is totally appropriate for this refund situation.

   "Making a lazy scammer work for his refund" would also make me spend a lot of time and eventually a lot more than $12 on nearly a 100% chance of loss anyway. Some sellers may want to pursue it and take that big risk of making it worse. I'm not willing to die on a hill this minor by getting my knickers in a twist over $12.

   Also, remember the evermore popular buyer cc chargeback even months down the road. This forum has a lot of complaints about it.

Cheers, Duffy

[vintagecraze50]

Correct. You do not reward people for bad behavior. It makes the situation worse on here for every seller when sellers cave in to people.  For Duffy, I understand his take on this and why he would choose the zero conflict approach, but for some of us selling items that are of much greater cost, this is simply not the option to take here. Either the 50 percent off option, or in case of a bogus chargeback, ebay seller protection when you rate in good standing with ebay and have done everything you should have done right.

[vintagecraze50]

Correct. 

[vintagecraze50]

Peace of mind for me  if I have sold a 500 dollar item and if someone tries to scam me I know I can deduct the 50 percent off to recoup some loss, and that I have some form of seller protection on here with a chargeback if that happens. While I am a brave soul for going over a 30 to 40 dollar limit on here, I have rarely experienced much loss here. There have been times when seller protection has saved a sale for me and much appreciated. There are time I have thwarted a loss with the way I have communicated firmly, but respectfully with a customer. I am not on here to give away things, OR reward criminals.

[a_c_green]

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@duffy4444 wrote:

"Is this a hill I'm willing to die on" is a figure of speech to demonstrate the need for perspective in determining where an issue fits into what is or isn't worth it.

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Yes, I know perfectly well what it means; my point was that it's possible, or practical, or businesslike, or something, to require the buyer to return the item he claims to have received without regarding it as some sort of personal defeat.

If we want to talk about this as scorekeeping in some way, it strikes me as more of a loss to simply refund without return for what is by all accounts a very obviously fraudulent claim. At minimum, you're encouraging more such behavior in future, if not by the scam buyer himself (who I assume you have blocked now) but by any of his acquaintances.

[duffy4444]

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@vintagecraze50 wrote:

Correct. You do not reward people for bad behavior. It makes the situation worse on here for every seller when sellers cave in to people.  For Duffy, I understand his take on this and why he would choose the zero conflict approach, but for some of us selling items that are of much greater cost, this is simply not the option to take here. Either the 50 percent off option, or in case of a bogus chargeback, ebay seller protection when you rate in good standing with ebay and have done everything you should have done right.

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Greetings again, @vintagecraze50:

    One thing I don't have is a "zero conflict approach". I have bitterly fought bogus returns in the past, and have won most of them. I have posted on this forum a couple times about a buyer 17 years or so ago, that a real live eBay rep got involved and eventually told the buyer that if the terms of the sale were not acceptable to him, he should not have purchased the item in the first place. That positive outcome for me would not have happened if I had just "caved in", as you put it.

    That was yesterday with much better Seller Protections based on common sense. This is today with eBay's approach that is heavily tipped in the buyer's favor, so I need to have a reasoned approach based on what is likely to happen. My time cannot be wasted, or my loss made greater, by fighting a losing battle on "principle". It's a decision I make based on the sales price, how much I paid for it originally as COGS, and the factors in a buyer's INAD request over a $12 item as opposed to a larger-risk item that is worth fighting for (which I WILL do).

   For some sellers, this is a battle that they would want to wage, and that is their privilege. I'm not denying that. But when it comes down to MY loss of time and making a $12 loss even more, I'll pass on such a small amount in my business model. Let those sellers who wish to do battle over such a loss "make the scam buyer work for it" and perhaps even eventually get the scammer kicked off the site. Great! I've been around long enough and seen so many changes happen in the 24+ years I've been selling here, that I've been seasoned enough to let others do the fighting and winning or losing over certain scam issues.

Cheers, Duffy

[mrfindit]

Knock on wood, been selling on E-Bay since 1998 and have only encountered two CC chargebacks.  Won both and got to keep the money.

One was a lady not remembering her purchase, and I contacted her first after the chargeback.  This jogged her memory and I sent her message to me, where she now remembered buying it, to her CC.  They asked her about it and she said she now remembered.  Closed in my favor.

The other was a little more nefarious.  Sold something, shipped it to a guy.  It was worth enough money that I had signature delivery.  All the names matched on Paypal and E-Bay as far as shipping address.  Someone signed for it under that name.

Then got hit with a chargeback.  Cardholder said no one with the name on the shipping address lived at his address, but it was his card.  Said he never ordered, received or signed for anything.  He also said he didn't even know anyone by the name of the person on the E-Bay address.

Then I whitepaged  the E-Bay name and it came up with that same address (also what the CC had on record for the cardholder), but no record of the guy's name on the CC as living at that address in whitepages.  Provided that info to the CC.  I had do do more digging online, but I eventually tracked down the social media profile of the guy with the CC.  Turns out he was the cousin of  the guy he claimed he didn't know, and found posts of him posing with his cousin at the same house on Google maps and linking his cousins Facebook account (using the full name, which is a name he claimed he didn't know).  Apparently it was his card, but his cousins house and they were living together.

Had to provide all of that to the CC company.  At the end, CC reversed the chargeback and I kept my money.  It did take some leg work and time.  But basically showed fraud on their part because this guy had claimed he didn't know anyone by that name, when he did, his cousin.

If he had said yes, he knew someone with that name, it was his cousin.  I probably wouldn't have gotten to keep the money, because they would have just said the cousin stole his CC and used it.

Now the first was a $10 transaction and the fraud was a $250 transaction.  I don't know if I would do the same with Managed Payments.  I no longer have the ability to relay information on directly to the CC, and E-Bay only lets you have one response (I think I had three on the fraud case above, as I found new details).

In that way, E-Bay has made it much harder on sellers to oppose fraud.  It's a $20 gamble to even try.

[duffy4444]

   I totally agree with you. I, too, have rarely experienced much loss here, and whatever seller protections we still have do occasionally get me out of a pickle. And when a legitimate customer concern is raised, I am very courteous and understanding and always make sure they are treated fairly.

    Although my large, expensive items are reserved for CraigsList or another local venue, I will occasionally vigorously fight a bogus INAD return attempt here. But my time and energy is better spent on listing, helping on this forum, and other things in my life, than wasting time being nice in messaging an obvious scammer when only a $12 loss is at stake and a bogus INAD claim that I will most likely lose anyway. I know what to expect and how it eventually goes. I no longer have the stomach for the hassles that others may wish to take on.

    We all have to pick our battles in proportion to our values and just how busy we want to be in fighting scams.

   Yes, the scammer was blocked within 20 seconds of my being notified. He will eventually get into trouble with someone who doesn't want to lose a $1000 sale. But it's not worth it for me over $12.

Cheers, Duffy

[duffy4444]

    I have also had two cc chargeback claims filed against me. Both were from buyers that forgot they ordered the items, and their bank statements were ambiguous to the point they thought the charges were wrong. When I told them what the item was for, they canceled the claims and even apologized.

    - Duffy

[duffy4444]

   I'm getting old. My time is too precious to relish fighting left and right. But when the issue or potential loss is big enough in any area of my life, I will come out like a cornered wolverine... just not over $12.

   Thanks, everybody for chiming in on my original post. I've spent over 4 hours on this, learned a lot, and I'm now going to switch over to listing and processing my sales. Thankfully, 99.9% of my buyers are great customers.

Cheers, Duffy

[femmefan1946]

I agree.

It's business, not personal.

You lost $5 and your shipping cost.

He lost the opportunity to buy from you in future and has to live with the knowledge he is a thief.

With a $15 an hour minimum wage, every minute of your time is worth 25c.

Time spent on scammers is a waste of money.

[chapeau-noir]

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@a_c_green wrote:

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@duffy4444 wrote:

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When I get a return request like this, I have to ask myself, "Is this a hill I'm willing to die on?"  In this case, just for my pride and $12 the answer is no. I'll move on and not waste any time on an eventual and more popular cc chargeback 100% loss (which would cost me an additional $20 to fight anyway).

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I don't know why you would regard pushing back on a suspicious return as being a hill to die on. It's not that critical to life and limb; it's just a matter of making a lazy scammer work for his refund. 

I would simply send the return label (if necessary) and have him send back what he's claiming to have received. He knows that you will recognize a parts swap, but he does not know what you might do about it at that point, so let him wonder whether sending back something other than what he received is a hill he's willing to die on. 

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This - I'm happy to take the return, issue the label on my dime - but they need to send it back. That only *if* it's something like the OP's situation.  I've just refunded before, absolutely, but it has been when I'm pretty sure it was my mistake, or can readily see how it was damaged - if it's my mistake, the last thing I want to do inconvenience my buyer over some dumb thing I did, or over a mishap that no one can help (I'll take care of the insurance claim).  I've been in this business for long enough to have a pretty good feel for these things. I also believe the vast majority of people are honest, but the dishonest seem to all run by the same MO - they can do a little footwork.  No dying on any hills here.

Still, this is a good thread and a good discussion @duffy4444  - I have a feeling a lot of his comes down to what we sell, what we're willing to deal with and past experiences so there will be all sorts of answers.