INR Question fro today's Weekly Chat on Returns (Dec 6)

[mr_lincoln]

@mr_lincoln wrote:

INR Question

I’ve read a number of threads where a Buyer processes an INR while the package is still in transit as Tracking shows and can be proven by the Seller.  An INR should not be allowed if the package is still in transit.  Buyers are getting awarded the claim and Refund then the package shows up late (through NO fault of the Seller, just a slow shipment by carrier) so they wind up getting the item FREE … Sellers have absolutely no control over what happens to a package once it is put in the hands of any carrier so why should they be penalized for that?

What is in place to protect the Seller from losing both money and item in this scenario?

@mr_lincoln Thanks for this feedback. Typically a buyer should not be given both the item and a refund -- we do indeed take a look at tracking details, estimated delivery date, and the carrier and service selected. If it's still in transit, we understand that the package should have an adequate amount of time to arrive. There is still always a risk of packages taking longer than the estimated delivery dates -- especially during busy times like the holidays! -- so we'd advise using tracked methods and really you should be covered. I'd also advise using more 'reliable' shipping services (e.g. economy may not be the best during this time of year) if you're worried about the packages taking too long. 

@lauren*us  Sorry I could not get back to the Chat today to reply ... I appreciate your reply but it doesn't answer the question.  The issue is not how an item is shipped other than it has tracking as stated ... it could be a 1 day delivery or 1 month, it does not matter.  The issue is the carrier fails to deliver on time so the Buyer can open an INR and get their money back ... then if the item gets delivered (and again, these are real live threads where this has happened) the Buyer keeps the item, does NOT pay for it since they have already been refunded ... so back to the original question ... What is in place to protect the Seller from losing both money and item in this scenario?

[d-k_treasures]

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@ersatz_sobriquet wrote:

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@chrysylys wrote:

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brian@ebay wrote:

while I wouldn't be able to speak to specifics here on the boards

There are times where a case is opened earlier, but this is not something I would be able to elaborate on publicly, especially regarding another members account.

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Well, of course not in detail, but you could give us a general synopsis.

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A buyer called in and complained, threw a fit, and demanded a case. 

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A buyer called in and complained, threw a fit, and demanded a case. 

Fixed that for you ....

[chrysylys]

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@Anonymous wrote:

Not all item not received requests or return requests are automated, as this is only applicable in a small portion of scenarios. One example would be an item not received request where no tracking has been provided and no response has been recorded from the seller to the request. Upon escalation from the buyer, this would likely be automatically closed for the buyer as the seller has not given us reason to believe the item is in transit, delivered or that they have otherwise been working on a resolution. Additionally, protections are put in place to minimize errors - automation would typically not occur if the seller escalated, for example. There are numerous other situations that would qualify for automatic decisions, and countless filters in place to instead route the case decision to one of our agents.

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If  a package vanishes from the carrier system (tracking stops, is suspended or delyayed) why would  'you' EVER allow a claim to be closed against the seller prior to the carrier's investigation and claim window?  I can see allowing a claim to be opened, but it should NEVER be closed prior to the carrier's determination.

[Anonymous]

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@nawlinsron2 wrote:
Ergo, in the absence of ANY extenuating circumstances, there is/is not code that allows an INR to be filed BEFORE the expected delivery date?

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Hi @nawlinsron2, if we are speaking of a completely normal, standard transaction with absolutely no extenuating circumstances, then the buyer would only have the option of opening an item not received request after the latest estimated delivery date has passed. Check out our eBay Money Back Guarantee policy page for specific details in item not received requests.

[Anonymous]

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@chrysylys wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

Not all item not received requests or return requests are automated, as this is only applicable in a small portion of scenarios. One example would be an item not received request where no tracking has been provided and no response has been recorded from the seller to the request. Upon escalation from the buyer, this would likely be automatically closed for the buyer as the seller has not given us reason to believe the item is in transit, delivered or that they have otherwise been working on a resolution. Additionally, protections are put in place to minimize errors - automation would typically not occur if the seller escalated, for example. There are numerous other situations that would qualify for automatic decisions, and countless filters in place to instead route the case decision to one of our agents.

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If  a package vanishes from the carrier system (tracking stops, is suspended or delyayed) why would  'you' EVER allow a claim to be closed against the seller prior to the carrier's investigation and claim window?  I can see allowing a claim to be opened, but it should NEVER be closed prior to the carrier's determination.

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This is a great question, @chrysylys. Since the buyer is not contracting with the courier directly, a carrier investigation is only for the seller's protection. A buyer purchased the item from the seller, and it would be the seller (not the carrier) that would be responsible for resolving the buyer's concerns. The shipping service the seller chooses to use falls under their responsibility, as they are entrusting the shipment with this courier. If damage occurs or the package is lost, the seller needs to resolve this for the buyer with a replacement or a refund. They can seek reimbursement from the courier if they elected to purchase insurance, but we would not expect a buyer to wait for this investigation to complete before receiving a resolution.

[gracieallen01]

trinton@ebay wrote:

"This is a great question, @chrysylys. Since the buyer is not contracting with the courier directly, a carrier investigation is only for the seller's protection. A buyer purchased the item from the seller, and it would be the seller (not the carrier) that would be responsible for resolving the buyer's concerns. The shipping service the seller chooses to use falls under their responsibility, as they are entrusting the shipment with this courier. If damage occurs or the package is lost, the seller needs to resolve this for the buyer with a replacement or a refund. They can seek reimbursement from the courier if they elected to purchase insurance, but we would not expect a buyer to wait for this investigation to complete before receiving a resolution."

This is what ebay, a third party, is deciding and declaring (the bolded part).

The buyer and the seller have a pact - ebay is a venue, remember.  The buyer and seller are making the agreement - which includes cost, shipping, courier, time, payment, etc.   ebay is 'supposed' to be a venue where the buyer and seller meet and hammer out details - not the playground supervisor.

"... but we would not expect a buyer to wait for this investigation to complete before receiving a resolution."  WHY????? 

And, WHY would ebay not expect a buyer to wait?  ebay expects the seller to wait 180 days for the buyer to decide if they're happy with the item.  ebay guarantees that the buyer has 30 days to return an item, while the seller waits to see if they do.  And, if ebay wants the buyer to be patted and soothed quickly, WHY doesn't ebay PAY for it, out of their pocket?

When and where does 'responsible' come in for ebay as a third party and a venue - besides ebay's bottom line, that is?

Shouldn't ebay buy and sell it's own inventory if it wants to control how that sale and transfer is handled?

[d-k_treasures]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@chrysylys wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

Not all item not received requests or return requests are automated, as this is only applicable in a small portion of scenarios. One example would be an item not received request where no tracking has been provided and no response has been recorded from the seller to the request. Upon escalation from the buyer, this would likely be automatically closed for the buyer as the seller has not given us reason to believe the item is in transit, delivered or that they have otherwise been working on a resolution. Additionally, protections are put in place to minimize errors - automation would typically not occur if the seller escalated, for example. There are numerous other situations that would qualify for automatic decisions, and countless filters in place to instead route the case decision to one of our agents.

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If  a package vanishes from the carrier system (tracking stops, is suspended or delyayed) why would  'you' EVER allow a claim to be closed against the seller prior to the carrier's investigation and claim window?  I can see allowing a claim to be opened, but it should NEVER be closed prior to the carrier's determination.

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This is a great question, @chrysylys. Since the buyer is not contracting with the courier directly, a carrier investigation is only for the seller's protection. A buyer purchased the item from the seller, and it would be the seller (not the carrier) that would be responsible for resolving the buyer's concerns. The shipping service the seller chooses to use falls under their responsibility, as they are entrusting the shipment with this courier. If damage occurs or the package is lost, the seller needs to resolve this for the buyer with a replacement or a refund. They can seek reimbursement from the courier if they elected to purchase insurance, but we would not expect a buyer to wait for this investigation to complete before receiving a resolution.

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Which courier has less than 14-21 days to declare a package lost? That's what you should go by. Not a day after(or before) some made up estimated delivery date.

Is this the 'managed marketplace' talking or the 'only a venue' talking? We all get confused as to which it is ...................

[mr_lincoln]

@Anonymous

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@nawlinsron2 wrote:
Ergo, in the absence of ANY extenuating circumstances, there is/is not code that allows an INR to be filed BEFORE the expected delivery date?

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Hi @nawlinsron2, if we are speaking of a completely normal, standard transaction with absolutely no extenuating circumstances, then the buyer would only have the option of opening an item not received request after the latest estimated delivery date has passed. Check out our eBay Money Back Guarantee policy page for specific details in item not received requests.

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Here's an M2M thread where Buyer says they did not receive the package but tracking shows delivered.   The OP received a reply that basically says Seller has nothing to do with this and the Buyer has to figure out what happened, etc.  Correct me if I am wrong but is this one of the few scenarios whereby the Seller is protected and is not forced to Refund the Buyer as long as they upload the Tracking info on an INR claim?

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Member-To-Member-Support/Never-received-package/qaq-p/27843056/jump-to/first-unread-message

[ersatz_sobriquet]

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@d-k_treasures wrote:

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Which courier has less than 14-21 days to declare a package lost? That's what you should go by. Not a day after(or before) some made up estimated delivery date.

Is this the 'managed marketplace' talking or the 'only a venue' talking? We all get confused as to which it is ...................

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Buyers like free stuff, ebay listens! 

[ekmadonna]

to your point, last week on Monday I shipped out about 5 first class packages and 3 or 4 priority mail packages from sales over the weekend. ALL of the first class packages and 2 of the priority packages took 7-8 days to get delivered and they all did not go to the west coast, some were only 2 zones away from me on the east coast. that is bad when estimated delivery is 2-3 business days on both classes of mail. thank God nobody opened a case. it is that time of year and USPS has not been efficient lately.

[mr_lincoln]

@ekmadonna

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@ekmadonna wrote:

to your point, last week on Monday I shipped out about 5 first class packages and 3 or 4 priority mail packages from sales over the weekend. ALL of the first class packages and 2 of the priority packages took 7-8 days to get delivered and they all did not go to the west coast, some were only 2 zones away from me on the east coast. that is bad when estimated delivery is 2-3 business days on both classes of mail. thank God nobody opened a case. it is that time of year and USPS has not been efficient lately.

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The postal system is buried ... last week I dropped off packages and the post master came out and took me to the back sorting room to pick up parcels plus show me the two poor workers literally buried in soft pack sorting ... the area they work in was over loaded with packages too on roll around pallets ... and it was only mid-morning.   The Post Master made the comment, "and people wonder why we make mistakes or have delays."

[ekmadonna]

your original question was a very good one during Wednesdays chat. the answer by the blues was very disappointing. 2 years ago I shipped a vintage bongo drum to a buyer in Puerto Rico, it was heavy and had a balloon weight surcharge on it and had to be shipped standard ground. the package lost all tracking updates after a week. the buyer was hawking the tracking the whole way through and when no tracking updates showed up after 10 days he contacted me and was getting really uneasy. I thought I had a major problem on my hands, I opened a official search and find request through USPS, come to find out he already opened one on his own. I thought for sure he was going to file a INR on me because he was very anxious and contacting me every day, some times 2 & 3 times a day. I just asked him to be patient. come to find out the package was actually shiped on a cargo ship and ended up taking 23 days to be delivered. actual estimated delivery was 10 days. These situations happen and any dishonest buyer can take advantage of these situations. I have been blessed that I have been able to pacify the handfull of buyers that have had to wait for major delays due to USPS mixups including shipping a motorcycle helmet from Providence RI to California 3 Thanksgivings ago only to be immediatly sent back through BELL GARDENS back to RI and then back to California again. another 3 weeks before customer got thier package. it is unacceptable for sellers to be held accountable for these situations. More time needs to be given for packages to be delivered before cases can be opened and closed period.

[mr_lincoln]

@ekmadonna

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@ekmadonna wrote:

"your original question was a very good one during Wednesdays chat. the answer by the blues was very disappointing. ..."

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Not a problem, after a couple back and forths on this thread I got the question answered.  I suspect that some of the eBay folks who supported the Returns chat are not regulars there on Wednesdays and were being careful with their replies - answers.  This whole issue is a hot topic and sensitive one ... I surmise that while eBay is a venue and Sellers are their own business units eBay as a whole wants the image of a large national retail chain in dealing with customers.  Perhaps Anchor stores and some Premium stores have deep enough pockets to make the occasional forced refund and loss of the item not affect them but smaller sellers see it as more of a pure loss and of course many take it personally.  As to your story and a comment near the end "it is unacceptable for sellers to be held accountable for these situations. ..."   I can only say I agree 100% but that is not how eBay is set up.  

[nawlinsron2]

In short, ebay wants your money, but not your business.
Your business, your problem.

[ekmadonna]

I would like to add one more important note. I have shipped over 3000 packages all over the world in the past 4 plus years of selling and have used the USPS exclusively. not only are they the best at handling packages safely, not one single package has ever been LOST, not one. very important, lots have been delayed and taken circuitous routes, and a few weeks at times to finally land on a customers door step, but EVERY SINGLE ONE HAS BEEN DELIVERED! so why such a short cut off time for INR'S?

[nawlinsron2]

ebay has an unfounded mania about catering to buyers.
Somehow, to them, buyers are customers.
Is there a 12 Step Program for such an addiction?