INR Question fro today's Weekly Chat on Returns (Dec 6)

[mr_lincoln]

@mr_lincoln wrote:

INR Question

I’ve read a number of threads where a Buyer processes an INR while the package is still in transit as Tracking shows and can be proven by the Seller.  An INR should not be allowed if the package is still in transit.  Buyers are getting awarded the claim and Refund then the package shows up late (through NO fault of the Seller, just a slow shipment by carrier) so they wind up getting the item FREE … Sellers have absolutely no control over what happens to a package once it is put in the hands of any carrier so why should they be penalized for that?

What is in place to protect the Seller from losing both money and item in this scenario?

@mr_lincoln Thanks for this feedback. Typically a buyer should not be given both the item and a refund -- we do indeed take a look at tracking details, estimated delivery date, and the carrier and service selected. If it's still in transit, we understand that the package should have an adequate amount of time to arrive. There is still always a risk of packages taking longer than the estimated delivery dates -- especially during busy times like the holidays! -- so we'd advise using tracked methods and really you should be covered. I'd also advise using more 'reliable' shipping services (e.g. economy may not be the best during this time of year) if you're worried about the packages taking too long. 

@lauren*us  Sorry I could not get back to the Chat today to reply ... I appreciate your reply but it doesn't answer the question.  The issue is not how an item is shipped other than it has tracking as stated ... it could be a 1 day delivery or 1 month, it does not matter.  The issue is the carrier fails to deliver on time so the Buyer can open an INR and get their money back ... then if the item gets delivered (and again, these are real live threads where this has happened) the Buyer keeps the item, does NOT pay for it since they have already been refunded ... so back to the original question ... What is in place to protect the Seller from losing both money and item in this scenario?

[nawlinsron2]

Maybe a different approach is needed...
Under what SPECIFIC circumstances does ebay condone the buyer keeping the money and the item?

[mr_lincoln]

@nawlinsron2  Actually, that list would have a few items on it as many have been reported here.  I'm just curious about the INR for this time around ... I mean what to you say to a Seller that is sitting there watching their tracking go either in circles or nowhere and then they get slapped with an INR and are forced to or eBay forces the Refund when the claim cycles through ... then the item gets delivered and the Buyer does not pay ...

What should happen is the INR should never be allowed until deliver shows delivered or the item gets returned to the sender OR if the item finally gets delivered and the Buyer has been refunded then eBay goes in to the Buyer's account and gets the money back to the Seller ...

[nawlinsron2]

At the least, a reasonable time frame should be established for an item to be considered not delivered.
Delays are a fact of delivery...to not acknowledge that is the definition of insanity.
That being said, a 10-14 day limit, depending on carrier, is not unreasonable.

[gracieallen01]

There is nothing in place.

It ends up being the same thing as a seller sending the wrong item, realizing their mistake, sending the actual item with a request for the wrong item to be returned, and then being ignored.  Out the wrong item and, if they have refunded because of late delivery - or whatever reason - the money. 

ebay can't pull money from a buyer - only a seller.

ebay will say - after the fact - that there isn't anything they can do to make the buyer return the wrong item - or pay again, if refunded.

And, there will ALWAYS be different/better carrier service to use - one of the two you didn't use.

[mr_lincoln]

@gracieallen01

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@gracieallen01 wrote:

There is nothing in place.

Yes, that sums it up but there should be something in place and that is what I am hoping they will do, put something in place to cover this scenario.   Its as simple as not letting the INR move forward ... now I will say that @nawlinsron2 makes a good point about putting a time limit on it, something reasonable ... but buy the same token the 3rd party should pony up the cash in the event the package is simple lost or stolen ... even it is a natural disaster the carriers should have insurance to cover thier losses as well as the loss for those who ship.  If the carriers have insurance that covers their vehilces and content and are getting $$ back they sure aren't sending the $$ for contents back to the shippers ... at least I've never heard of that happening ... if someone knows differently pease post.

[gracieallen01]

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@mr_lincoln wrote:

@gracieallen01

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@gracieallen01 wrote:

There is nothing in place.

Yes, that sums it up but there should be something in place and that is what I am hoping they will do, put something in place to cover this scenario.   Its as simple as not letting the INR move forward ... now I will say that @nawlinsron2 makes a good point about putting a time limit on it, something reasonable ... but buy the same token the 3rd party should pony up the cash in the event the package is simple lost or stolen ... even it is a natural disaster the carriers should have insurance to cover thier losses as well as the loss for those who ship.  If the carriers have insurance that covers their vehilces and content and are getting $$ back they sure aren't sending the $$ for contents back to the shippers ... at least I've never heard of that happening ... if someone knows differently pease post.

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I'm afraid that it probably isn't very likely they will put a longer limit - in general - on INR.  They have pushed to have the soonest time possible as the expected date, made search standings partially dependent on it and widely advertised 'FAST' delivery.  Do you really think they are going to back-peddle?  I think not.

Carriers do have insurance - if the seller decides to buy it.  Otherwise, they are on a budget, too, just like ebay.  Acts of nature or god are not in their power to prevent (ask them, they'll tell you).

[sodelight]

The allowable delay should be the equivalent of the time frame a carrier mandates before a shipper can file a lost package claim. This would be what the carrier foresees as a reasonable delay per their standards and experience, before a package is normally declared lost.

A seller shouldn't be expected to refund monies to a buyer before the shipping carrier will accept an insurance claim on the lost package. If ebay wants to grant it out of their pocket that's one thing, but to take it from the seller when odds are the package will likely be delivered is wrong.

If a refund is granted and the package is later shown delivered, ebay should send a message to the buyer to either pay for the item or return it. Failure to do so should result in buyer suspension. A buyer with any sense of morals would repay the seller. It's unfortunate these morals can be lacking in society today.

It's interesting that if a seller fails to pay ebay fees, they're suspended and the account put into collections. As ebay rightfully expects to be paid for services rendered. However, it seems to be perfectly fine for a seller to have monies taken for sales provided from a buyer, and the buyer is allowed to continue to make further purchases. Very hypocritical.

I would think the above to be a reasonable policy consideration. But I'm a dreamer!

[mr_lincoln]

@sodelight  Wow, that was put very nicely.  Makes sense to me.

[campesinoplastic2014]

They are giving away someone else's money, so they simply could care less. It will stay that way. As long as the buyer gets what they want and keeps "shopping" here, the seller can crash and burn for all they care

[campesinoplastic2014]

How would this same scenario play out on Amazon? You call them because you don't have your item, they see that it's been a week and it's in the USPS system traveling toward you, will they gave you the item and a refund?  Would LL Bean's website? Target.com?

[hafoster]

@lauren*us

trinton@ebay wrote:

When we look at an INR claim where tracking has been provided but the item may be lost in transit, we make a determination as to whether or not it would be reasonable to assume the package is lost before mandating a refund.

If there is a tracking update within the past week for a domestic transaction or 10 days for international, we will allow more time for delivery. The time we allow may vary depending on how far beyond the estimated delivery date we are at, but is typically between 5 and 15 days more.

[*eponymous*]

Time waits for no man (or woman) @mr_lincoln.

Whatever may occur after an INR case is decided is immaterial to the decision that finalizes the case.

Neither eBay nor any other being can go back in time and change the circumstances on that date to provide you with this utopian result you insist is both reasonable and possible.  It is neither.

History is what it is...

[chrysylys]

Had a case about a year ago.  I knew I wouoldn't get the item.  It had never been marked shipepd and the seller disappeared.  No longer answering messages and a string of negs started showing up.

The system STILL wouldn't even give me the option to open an INR until after the estimated arrival date.  Once that happened, it wanted another 3-5 days for the seller to respond.

Unless something (else) has changed, I don't see how buyers can open INRs too soon.

[vintagecraze50]

I think part of the solution for this is to keep in contact with the buyer on the status of the delivery. If you see that a package is stuck some where, message the buyer with a thoughtful response letting them know that the package has some delays and that you are keeping track of it. I had a stuck package awhile ago and kept messaging the  buyer assuring them it was on the way, and it worked out quite nicely with no problems. Would help with them prematurely opening an INR.