eBay

gjlutz · ‎04-29-2018

I sent an item through global shipping and it was damaged during transit. Usually I have had no problem with getting reimbursed in the past for this, until now.... Buyer filed through Paypal as "not as described" instead of filing through Ebay, and because of this it has been a nightmare! It has been 2 weeks, and now Paypal is saying another month to look into this??? My $200 in funds is being held, and I've called them twice with no luck. They informed me that it should have gone through Ebay, (which I'm aware of ), instead of them, but now there is nothing they can do about it. My question is; Is there a chance this will go wrong for me? Why should it be different how they treat the case just because its Paypay and not Ebay? I packed item extremely well and absolutely do not feel that this should be on me, nor do I feel the buyer should lose either. If Global shipping is going to be so difficult to use, then I will not be using them anymore, not worth the risk.

marnotom! · ‎05-02-2018

@lacemaker3 wrote:
Here is the GSP terms and conditions page for sellers in the UK:
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/shipping/globalshipping/seller-tnc.html

The T&C page on eBay.com for sellers in the USA used to look much the same, but they reformatted it recently to make it more user friendly. I don't think there were any changes to the T&C with the reformatting. The information is supposed to be the same.
https://pages.ebay.com/seller-center/shipping/global-shipping-program.html#m17-2-tb4

The US Global Shipping Program FAQ page may be more user-friendly, but in the process of getting rid of the legal gobbledegook, a lot of nuances may have been lost. Thanks for the link to the UK seller T&C. I notice that this passage appears in the section on loss and damage:

You will not be responsible under the eBay Money Back Guarantee or PayPal Buyer Protection Programmes for the loss of, or damage to, a GSP Item after its acceptance at the UK Shipping Centre.

Emphasis is, of course, mine.

marnotom! · ‎05-02-2018

@lovtaco0 wrote:

@marnotom! wrote: What tools do you believe eBay and PayPal have at their disposal to combat an SNAD chargeback originating from a Belgian financial institution? The MBG and PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy are in place to discourage chargebacks, and PayPal's Seller Protection Policy is protection against fraudulent chargebacks, not legitimate ones.
They don't need to combat the chargeback with the financial institution. They need to hold the 3rd party shipper accountable the same way they would if the claim was filed with paypal instead of the CC and they should absorb the $20 chargeback fee on top of it. The payout for the chargeback should come from their agreement with the shipper not the seller.

I'm still wondering what mechanism there is in place to do this. With an eBay Buyer Protection Claim, there appears to be a relationship or agreement between the Pitney Bowes and eBay that allows for this accountability, just as there is between eBay and a "regular" seller who has a claim filed against them. With a PayPal claim, there's a similar relationship or agreement in place. With a chargeback, there is no relationship in place that the credit card issuer has with eBay, PayPal or Pitney Bowes to ensure that the seller isn't hung out to dry.

So again, I have to ask, how or who holds Pitney Bowes' feet to the fire on this? The ball seems to be in their court. I have to agree with eBay staff on this one. It's not that eBay or PayPal don't want to do right by this seller. It's just that at this point their hands are tied and it's only Pitney Bowes who can initiate any sort of plan to protect the seller and live up to what appears to be a flawed or poorly worded agreement.

d-k_treasures · ‎05-02-2018

@tellmemama wrote:
So this, gentle readers, is what we've learned thus far: the seemingly ironclad seller protections of using GSP are completely useless if gamed properly. And nowhere in the GSP pages is this information displayed. Keep in mind this is from the tech company who brought you the "cosmetic errors" to the store subscription levels earlier today. When all is said and done, I smell some sort of courtesy refund going to the OP in hopes of making this whole mess go away.

Until the next time it happens.

Hopefully there will be a refund to the OP, but hopefully it won't go away until ebay takes responsibility for this.

_____________________________
"Nothing is obvious to the oblivious"

gjlutz · ‎05-02-2018

The problem is this all started because the buyer mistakingly filed with Paypal instead of Ebay, which could be a common occurance. A lot of customers do not know the difference between the two, so an easy mistake. Then once your claim is filed with Paypay, they are not treating it as they are supposed to be treating the Global shipping claims as per agreement. I knew right away that it was going to be a problem. They were taking weeks, so the buyer got tired of it and decided to file with her CC. PAYPAL dropped the ball from the beginning, which in turn started this mess. So anytime a customer from Global shipping program emails you and says, "My item broke, what should I do?". You can guide them to file the claim with Ebay, but it doesn't mean they will. So once the mistake is made, good luck getting it fixed or your money. My lesson here is I will absolutely not be sending any valuable item through the Global shipping program until this is fixed. I cannot risk losing hundreds of dollars here and there because Payapl doesn't have their act together, and no one else wants to step in and take any resposiblity for this either.

tunicaslot · ‎05-02-2018

Trinton's opinion really doesn't matter as he is employed by Ebay. I'm not saying he doesn't have an opinion - but being Ebay is his boss - he's doing his job by explaining the situation as best he can. I have found that even though many Ebay employees talk up the different benefits of using services like the GPS, free shipping, guarenteed delivery ect.... many don't use them when selling their own items here.

The best way to see what confidence Ebay employees have in these programs is too see if they themselves use them for the articles they are selling.

Anonymous · ‎05-02-2018

@ted_200 wrote:

@Anonymous wrote:

@lovtaco0 wrote:

@Anonymous, there should be an option within eBay for the seller to file a claim against the GSP so they can be made whole when this happens.

Hi @lovtaco0, while this is currently not an option I think it is a great suggestion and I will definitely pass this along for consideration!

@ted_200, @dtexley3 & @bubbleman2010 - as I stated earlier, our protections apply only to eBay. We do not offer protection for any avenues outside of eBay that your buyer takes to resolve a concern. This would include, but not be limited to, chargebacks filed with their financial institution. I am sorry if I have been unclear and, if there is any information that you have seen that indicates we offer this kind of protection, please let me know so I can get this addressed. When looking into these concerns I was unable to find any reference to protections we offer that extend outside of eBay.

I quoted two specific clearly worded examples, both of which stated the seller had no risk of loss for loss or damage in transit, once it was accepted at GSP. eBay wrote this, it's on your site:

As a seller your responsibility ends once the item reaches the Global Shipping Center. If the item is lost or damaged during international transit, the Program has you covered.

As between you and your buyer, the risk of loss or damage to a GSP item shall remain with you until the GSP item is accepted at the Global Shipping Center or has been returned to you by Pitney Bowes from the Global Shipping Center. As between your buyer and Pitney Bowes, risk of loss or damage to a GSP item shall transfer to your buyer from Pitney Bowes and/or its third party parcel processing service providers when the GSP item leaves the Global Shipping Center.

Those do not even HINT at there being any "conditional" protection that depends on how the buyer funded the PayPal payment.

Can you show me anything in any of the GSP provisions that says otherwise? I looked for it, I don't see it anywhere. eBay can not change the Terms of Service after the fact, just because they wish it said something else.

Hi @ted_200, I've reviewed the quotes you have provided and I do not see any indication of protection being offered in the even of a chargeback.

As I have stated previously; the protections that we offer would only apply to to the eBay site. It should be understood that our policies are implicitly only applicable to our site - our policies would not apply to another company. I have reviewed the information available on our Global Shipping Program extensively and have found no content that would give the impression that you are protected in investigations outside of eBay. All of our policies, procedures and protections only apply to the eBay site. Anything outside of eBay would be outside of our jurisdiction and as such, not subject to any agreements you have with eBay.

I understand this is may not have been the answer you were hoping for. It is reasonable that the policies of one company do not have an affect on another company. If you can provide any information from the site that would indicate we offer protection in a third party investigation, I'm will be happy to discuss this further at that time.

marnotom! · ‎05-02-2018

@gjlutz wrote:

The problem is this all started because the buyer mistakingly filed with Paypal instead of Ebay, which could be a common occurance. A lot of customers do not know the difference between the two, so an easy mistake.

It may or may not be a mistake. Depending on the eBay site the buyer used when buying your item, the procedure for filing a claim for a damaBged item may be different than what you're used to on the .com site.

My recall on this is fuzzy as I never had to avail myself of buyer protection, but I believe several years ago, all buyer claims made on the Canadian eBay site were immediately kicked over to PayPal. The buyer protections on eBay.be may be similarly structured. I don't have the time or patience to investigate with my rusty high school French.

The GSP buyer terms and conditions on eBay.ca state that either protection scheme may be pursued by a buyer in the event of a claim of loss or damage.

d-k_treasures · ‎05-02-2018

@Anonymous wrote:
@ted_200 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@lovtaco0 wrote:
@Anonymous, there should be an option within eBay for the seller to file a claim against the GSP so they can be made whole when this happens.
Hi @lovtaco0, while this is currently not an option I think it is a great suggestion and I will definitely pass this along for consideration!

@ted_200, @dtexley3 & @bubbleman2010 - as I stated earlier, our protections apply only to eBay. We do not offer protection for any avenues outside of eBay that your buyer takes to resolve a concern. This would include, but not be limited to, chargebacks filed with their financial institution. I am sorry if I have been unclear and, if there is any information that you have seen that indicates we offer this kind of protection, please let me know so I can get this addressed. When looking into these concerns I was unable to find any reference to protections we offer that extend outside of eBay.
I quoted two specific clearly worded examples, both of which stated the seller had no risk of loss for loss or damage in transit, once it was accepted at GSP. eBay wrote this, it's on your site:

As a seller your responsibility ends once the item reaches the Global Shipping Center. If the item is lost or damaged during international transit, the Program has you covered.

As between you and your buyer, the risk of loss or damage to a GSP item shall remain with you until the GSP item is accepted at the Global Shipping Center or has been returned to you by Pitney Bowes from the Global Shipping Center. As between your buyer and Pitney Bowes, risk of loss or damage to a GSP item shall transfer to your buyer from Pitney Bowes and/or its third party parcel processing service providers when the GSP item leaves the Global Shipping Center.

Those do not even HINT at there being any "conditional" protection that depends on how the buyer funded the PayPal payment.

Can you show me anything in any of the GSP provisions that says otherwise? I looked for it, I don't see it anywhere. eBay can not change the Terms of Service after the fact, just because they wish it said something else.
Hi @ted_200, I've reviewed the quotes you have provided and I do not see any indication of protection being offered in the even of a chargeback.

As I have stated previously; the protections that we offer would only apply to to the eBay site. It should be understood that our policies are implicitly only applicable to our site - our policies would not apply to another company. I have reviewed the information available on our Global Shipping Program extensively and have found no content that would give the impression that you are protected in investigations outside of eBay. All of our policies, procedures and protections only apply to the eBay site. Anything outside of eBay would be outside of our jurisdiction and as such, not subject to any agreements you have with eBay.

I understand this is may not have been the answer you were hoping for. It is reasonable that the policies of one company do not have an affect on another company. If you can provide any information from the site that would indicate we offer protection in a third party investigation, I'm will be happy to discuss this further at that time.

Given what was quoted by ted, where does it say that the protection is NOT offered?

_____________________________
"Nothing is obvious to the oblivious"

lovtaco0 · ‎05-02-2018

@marnotom! wrote:
@lovtaco0 wrote:

@marnotom! wrote: What tools do you believe eBay and PayPal have at their disposal to combat an SNAD chargeback originating from a Belgian financial institution? The MBG and PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy are in place to discourage chargebacks, and PayPal's Seller Protection Policy is protection against fraudulent chargebacks, not legitimate ones.
They don't need to combat the chargeback with the financial institution. They need to hold the 3rd party shipper accountable the same way they would if the claim was filed with paypal instead of the CC and they should absorb the $20 chargeback fee on top of it. The payout for the chargeback should come from their agreement with the shipper not the seller.
I'm still wondering what mechanism there is in place to do this. With an eBay Buyer Protection Claim, there appears to be a relationship or agreement between the Pitney Bowes and eBay that allows for this accountability, just as there is between eBay and a "regular" seller who has a claim filed against them. With a PayPal claim, there's a similar relationship or agreement in place. With a chargeback, there is no relationship in place that the credit card issuer has with eBay, PayPal or Pitney Bowes to ensure that the seller isn't hung out to dry.

So again, I have to ask, how or who holds Pitney Bowes' feet to the fire on this? The ball seems to be in their court. I have to agree with eBay staff on this one. It's not that eBay or PayPal don't want to do right by this seller. It's just that at this point their hands are tied and it's only Pitney Bowes who can initiate any sort of plan to protect the seller and live up to what appears to be a flawed or poorly worded agreement.

PayPal should. The financial institution does not need a relationship with the shipper because PayPal has one and PayPal is processing the payment. PayPal has the ability to hold the shipper accountable if the claim is filed directly with PayPal so they should also have the ability to hold the shipper accountable if the claim is filed through the financial institution whose payment they are processing.

We're not talking about a situation where a claim is filed with the CC and the CC is going directly to the seller. In a situation like that then it would matter if the CC has an agreement with the shipper. We're talking about a situation where a claim is filed with the CC and the CC is going to PayPal, the payment processer, to handle the claim. PayPal does have agreements with the shipper and should be able to hold them accountable.

Say I purchased an item that used the GSP for shipment. I can purchase that item with my CC and use PayPal to process the payment and I can file a claim through PayPal if the item is damaged during international transit. PayPal processed the payment and they will hold the shipper accountable. They will reimburse me and recoup funds from an insurance claim with the shipper, not from the seller's pocket (when they follow procedure). Now say I filed a claim with my CC instead of with PayPal. That should not make a difference- PayPal can still hold the shipper accountable and should do so. My payment method is the same and PayPal is still the one who processed that payment.

If I were @gjlutz I would call PayPal and make those arguments. At the very least maybe they can get a courtesy refund.

ted_200 · ‎05-02-2018

@d-k_treasures wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@ted_200 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@lovtaco0 wrote:
@Anonymous, there should be an option within eBay for the seller to file a claim against the GSP so they can be made whole when this happens.
Hi @lovtaco0, while this is currently not an option I think it is a great suggestion and I will definitely pass this along for consideration!

@ted_200, @dtexley3 & @bubbleman2010 - as I stated earlier, our protections apply only to eBay. We do not offer protection for any avenues outside of eBay that your buyer takes to resolve a concern. This would include, but not be limited to, chargebacks filed with their financial institution. I am sorry if I have been unclear and, if there is any information that you have seen that indicates we offer this kind of protection, please let me know so I can get this addressed. When looking into these concerns I was unable to find any reference to protections we offer that extend outside of eBay.
I quoted two specific clearly worded examples, both of which stated the seller had no risk of loss for loss or damage in transit, once it was accepted at GSP. eBay wrote this, it's on your site:

As a seller your responsibility ends once the item reaches the Global Shipping Center. If the item is lost or damaged during international transit, the Program has you covered.

As between you and your buyer, the risk of loss or damage to a GSP item shall remain with you until the GSP item is accepted at the Global Shipping Center or has been returned to you by Pitney Bowes from the Global Shipping Center. As between your buyer and Pitney Bowes, risk of loss or damage to a GSP item shall transfer to your buyer from Pitney Bowes and/or its third party parcel processing service providers when the GSP item leaves the Global Shipping Center.

Those do not even HINT at there being any "conditional" protection that depends on how the buyer funded the PayPal payment.

Can you show me anything in any of the GSP provisions that says otherwise? I looked for it, I don't see it anywhere. eBay can not change the Terms of Service after the fact, just because they wish it said something else.
Hi @ted_200, I've reviewed the quotes you have provided and I do not see any indication of protection being offered in the even of a chargeback.

As I have stated previously; the protections that we offer would only apply to to the eBay site. It should be understood that our policies are implicitly only applicable to our site - our policies would not apply to another company. I have reviewed the information available on our Global Shipping Program extensively and have found no content that would give the impression that you are protected in investigations outside of eBay. All of our policies, procedures and protections only apply to the eBay site. Anything outside of eBay would be outside of our jurisdiction and as such, not subject to any agreements you have with eBay.

I understand this is may not have been the answer you were hoping for. It is reasonable that the policies of one company do not have an affect on another company. If you can provide any information from the site that would indicate we offer protection in a third party investigation, I'm will be happy to discuss this further at that time.
Given what was quoted by ted, where does it say that the protection is NOT offered?

I already asked that very question, the reply contains no answer.

Given this reply...

As I have stated previously; the protections that we offer would only apply to to the eBay site.

... he's saying there's no protection from a PayPal Buyer Protection case either... since that's not "the eBay site".

Someone upthread said the buyer "made a mistake". The buyer made no mistake, if they paid with a credit card, they have chargeback rights. PayPal should have fought the chargeback... they have a case, because most cc chargebacks require the card holder to attempt to resolve the problem directly with the merchant (PayPal is the merchant of record) first.

But this brings up a whole other problem. eBay is supporting direct credit card payments now (processed through PayPal, for now). If the buyer purchased this way... they may not even HAVE a PayPal account... then they can't very well open a case at PayPal. While the GSP requires the listing to offer PayPal, it does not appear to require the buyer to USE PayPal.

Again, I do not see anything in the GSP terms that suggests the "protection" is limited to only certain dispute resolution mechanisms (and not others). It says...

Your responsibility ends... the Program has you covered.

...the risk of loss or damage to a GSP item shall remain with you until the GSP item is accepted at the Global Shipping Center...

Trinton - not me - keeps saying this is a lie.

The Floggings Will Continue Until Morale Improves.

ted_200 · ‎05-02-2018

If you can provide any information from the site that would indicate we offer protection in a third party investigation, I'm will be happy to discuss this further at that time.

I just provided it, you quoted it, I copied it off eBay.

You still have not shown me anything from the site that contradicts it.

I understand this is may not have been the answer you were hoping for.

I'm not hoping for anything, I don't use GSP and I don't trust eBay exactly because of this sort of thing. I wouldn't touch this scam with a ten foot stick, now.

But I believe the OP should be "covered" as eBay promised.

The Floggings Will Continue Until Morale Improves.

lovtaco0 · ‎05-02-2018

@Anonymous, you have been saying that the site does not specify a seller is covered with all forms of claims that can be filed and that it should be assumed that a claim filed with eBay is the only way a seller is covered.

eBay should change the wording because it implies that a seller is covered no matter where the claim is filed - see the passages outlined in red font above. They are stated as absolutes and it's conveying that a seller is covered. Period.

The UK program is more specific and the US program should add this wording to their site:

You will not be responsible under the eBay Money Back Guarantee or PayPal Buyer Protection Programmes for the loss of, or damage to, a GSP Item after its acceptance at the UK Shipping Centre.

Please pass on to the team working out the Adyen system that if a CC chargeback is filed when Adyen is processing the payment that the seller should be covered.

ittybitnot · ‎05-02-2018

Trinton - not me - keeps saying this is a lie.

When I was a little girl growing up I went ot Catholic school. There we were taught about "lying by omission". There are some very serious considerations that were OMITTED from the GSP. Trinton is doing his best fo fill us in on those very serious considerations. Apparently, they were omitted on purpose to make the program more attractive. I sort of think it has outlived its usefulness.

ted_200 · ‎05-02-2018

@ittybitnot wrote:
Trinton - not me - keeps saying this is a lie.

When I was a little girl growing up I went ot Catholic school. There we were taught about "lying by omission". There are some very serious considerations that were OMITTED from the GSP. Trinton is doing his best fo fill us in on those very serious considerations. Apparently, they were omitted on purpose to make the program more attractive. I sort of think it has outlived its usefulness.

One would hope a Fortune 500 company isn't hiring naughty Catholic school girls to write their TOS...

The Floggings Will Continue Until Morale Improves.

ittybitnot · ‎05-02-2018

One would hope a Fortune 500 company isn't hiring naughty Catholic school girls to write their TOS...

No, living in fear of eternal damnation, school girls of this genre would be sure to 'include' all the omissions to protect sellers from the typical "trial by fire"...LOLOLOL They would not get hired.