Global Shipping Damaged item Shipping Problem

[gjlutz]

I sent an item through global shipping and it was damaged during transit.  Usually  I have had no problem with getting reimbursed in the past for this, until now....  Buyer filed through Paypal as "not as described" instead of filing through Ebay, and because of this it has been a nightmare!  It has been 2 weeks, and now Paypal is saying another month to look into this??? My $200 in funds is being held, and I've called them twice with no luck.  They informed me that it should have gone through Ebay, (which I'm  aware of ), instead of them, but now there is nothing they can do about it.  My question is;  Is there a chance this will go wrong for me?  Why should it be different how they treat the case just because its Paypay and not Ebay?  I packed item extremely well and absolutely do not feel that this should be on me, nor do I feel the buyer should lose either.  If Global shipping is going to be so difficult to use, then I will not be using them anymore, not worth the risk.

[ted_200]

Buyer can't just buy and pay for GSP item willy-nilly, the program requires the use of PayPal. 

As the merchant of record, the buyer didn't file a credit card chargeback against the seller, they filed against PayPal.  PayPal is now passing that on to the seller, claiming "it's not us, there's nothing we can do".  But as an active and mandatory participant in the GSP they have an obligation to the TOS.  The GSP TOS says whether the claim against the seller originates at PayPal or originates at eBay MBG, the seller is not responsible and no longer has risk of loss for damage once received at GSP PB. 

This situation is utter nonsense. 

[ted_200]

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@ittybitnot wrote:

 and we are not able to speak to the specifics of other resolution options a buyer may choose to use.

So it seems we are to assume the seller protections offered by the GSP simply do not exist if the buyer files a credit card SNAD complaint for damaged in shipping?   All this time, I was under the impression that a seller was not liable for such claims regardless of the funding source.  Won't be the first time I was ever wrong. Perhaps that explaination should be put in some policy somewhere to prevent the trial by fire issue we seem to see here.   

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You cetainly weren't wrong, they were clearly and intentionally giving sellers that impression.  In fact, they flat out stated that damage at or after arrival at GSP was not the seller's problem or responsibility, and that they would handle it.  And pay for it.

The question now is:  Is that a fact?  Or is it merely an "impression"? 

[ittybitnot]

The question now is:  Is that a fact?  Or is it merely an "impression"? 

My first impression would be to go copy and get a screen shot of the applicable pages regarding the GSP and procedures.  They just might be different by the morning.  Perhaps this new "twist" is just the result of an undisclosed policy that nobody can talk about due to security reasons.  

[marnotom!]

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@ted_200 wrote:

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as an active and mandatory participant in the GSP they have an obligation to the TOS.  The GSP TOS says whether the claim against the seller originates at PayPal or originates at eBay MBG, the seller is not responsible and no longer has risk of loss for damage once received at GSP PB. 

@ted_200, do you have a link to the GSP terms and conditions (assuming that's what you mean by TOS) for sellers?  As a Canadian eBay user, I'd like to find out more about them.

[missjen831]

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@marnotom! wrote:

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@missjen831 wrote:

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@marnotom! wrote:

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@ittybitnot wrote:

So it seems we are to assume the seller protections offered by the GSP simply do not exist if the buyer files a credit card SNAD complaint for damaged in shipping?   All this time, I was under the impression that a seller was not liable for such claims regardless of the funding source.  

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My understanding from what I've read of this thread is that this is not a credit card SNAD complaint, but a credit card chargeback.  Different animal.

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Actually it’s the same animal. 

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Because the post ends with the statement "regardless of the funding source," I'm interpreting their use of the term "credit card SNAD complaint" to be related to a PayPal process, closely related to a  "SNAD complaint" made for an item with payment funded through a PayPal balance or an eCheck.  

I've never encountered the term "SNAD complaint" to be used in conjunction with a chargeback filed with a credit card issuer.  But then, I'm in Canada, we have slightly different terminology for some matters related to payment.  (Our "debit cards" are ATM cards used at POS terminals, for instance.)

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Maybe it’s different in the US. A chargeback means the buyer has disputed the payment with their card issuer. SNAD is the reason for the chargeback. There is always a reason for the chargeback. SNAD chargebacks are common. So are unauthorized use chargebacks. If the buyer pays with PayPal and funds the payment with a credit card, and then disputes the charge with their card issuer, it’s a chargeback. The OP was first hit with a PayPal SNAD dispute and it’s now turned into an SNAD chargeback because the buyer is disputing the charge with their credit card company. 

[missjen831]

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@ittybitnot wrote:

The gsp as long as long as the seller has proof of delivery to the GSP.

They are supposed to take care of damaged in shipping stuff as well.  We can add now ..."unless it is a credit card chargeback".   What makes this any different?  Credit card SNAD or INR?   INR is ok.....Unless it is a credit card chargeback?  

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Yes. Unless it’s a credit card chargeback. For a chargeback the seller would still have to provide proof of delivery to the GSP. But it’s anyone’s guess what will happen. According to policy the seller is covered by seller protection BUT since they didn’t ship to the buyers address, PayPal may try to pass the buck to the seller. 

[missjen831]

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@marnotom! wrote:

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@ted_200 wrote:

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as an active and mandatory participant in the GSP they have an obligation to the TOS.  The GSP TOS says whether the claim against the seller originates at PayPal or originates at eBay MBG, the seller is not responsible and no longer has risk of loss for damage once received at GSP PB. 

@ted_200, do you have a link to the GSP terms and conditions (assuming that's what you mean by TOS) for sellers?  As a Canadian eBay user, I'd like to find out more about them.

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There are terms and conditions for the buyer here. Keep in mind, it’s written to sound like the buyer is liable for everything, it’s poorly written. Don’t be scared when you read it https://pages.ebay.com/shipping/globalshipping/buyer-tnc.html

i can’t find one for the seller. The help pages are a huge mess, here are various seller information pages. I can’t find the page that discusses how the seller is protected

FAQ- https://pages.ebay.com/seller-center/faq/global-shipping.html

seller center page http://pages.ebay.com/seller-center/shipping/global-shipping-program.html

This might be a repeat of the above link https://www.ebay.com/help/global-shipping-program/default/global-shipping-program?id=4646

[ted_200]

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@marnotom! wrote:

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@ted_200 wrote:

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as an active and mandatory participant in the GSP they have an obligation to the TOS.  The GSP TOS says whether the claim against the seller originates at PayPal or originates at eBay MBG, the seller is not responsible and no longer has risk of loss for damage once received at GSP PB. 

@ted_200, do you have a link to the GSP terms and conditions (assuming that's what you mean by TOS) for sellers?  As a Canadian eBay user, I'd like to find out more about them.

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Actually, I spent about 15 minutes wandering blindly all over the site looking for them.  It's scattered everywhere, from the U.A. to the Seller Center, to it's own page.  I have been unable to sufficiently parse the weasel words to know for sure if they've loop-holed themselves out of responsibility, or if they're simply not living up to the deal.

I started with the link to the canadian policy above and changed it to .com.

http://pages.ebay.com/shipping/globalshipping/buyer-tnc.html

That thing is dated 2014, not sure if it's current.

A link in that took me to this page:

https://www.ebay.com/help/buying/postage-delivery/changing-delivery-address-method/international-pur...

Which led to this page:

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/selling/selling-internationally?id=4132

Seeing as that was pretty much useless, I went to the UA, which mentions it here:

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/member-behaviour-policies/user-agreement?id=4259#Global

That leads to this Seller Center page:

https://pages.ebay.com/seller-center/shipping/global-shipping-program.html

And this FAQ page:

https://pages.ebay.com/seller-center/faq/global-shipping.html

Among those FAQ's is this statement:

As a seller your responsibility ends once the item reaches the Global Shipping Center. If the item is lost or damaged during international transit, the Program has you covered.

[ted_200]

Also in those FAQ's:

Who is responsible if the item is lost or damaged?

As between you and your buyer, the risk of loss or damage to a GSP item shall remain with you until the GSP item is accepted at the Global Shipping Center or has been returned to you by Pitney Bowes from the Global Shipping Center. As between your buyer and Pitney Bowes, risk of loss or damage to a GSP item shall transfer to your buyer from Pitney Bowes and/or its third party parcel processing service providers when the GSP item leaves the Global Shipping Center.

I have no idea if this stuff is binding, nor if it is contradicted or qualified with an escape hatch somewhere else.  There are enough mountains of weasel words covering this to keep an entire team of lawyers busy for a week.  But it looks to me like eBay/PayPal/PB don't want to live up to their obligations and they're Sgt. Schultz-ing sellers to avoid paying their liabilities under the program terms.   

[marnotom!]

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@ted_200 wrote:

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It looks to me like eBay/PayPal/PB don't want to live up to their obligations and they're Sgt. Schultz-ing sellers to avoid paying their liabilities under the program terms.   

It doesn't look like that to me.  Yet.  My understanding is that the OP just has their funds on hold, and that because this is a chargeback, this hold will be for a longer period than if the buyer had filed a claim with eBay or PayPal.  (My understanding is that even SNAD claims for items damaged through the GSP see a hold on the seller's account.)

I'm hoping that the investigation into the chargeback will reveal Pitney Bowes' role in all this.  I'm also wondering if part of the problem may be that the chargeback only involves the seller's portion of the sale.  For whatever reason, be it carelessness on the buyer's part or the credit card issuer's part, a chargeback may not have been filed for Pitney Bowes' portion of the sale (i.e. the "import charges" and Pitney Bowes' shipping charges) and as a result they're not in the loop here.

[gjlutz]

Good observations, I would still argue that I have nothing to do with this, so I am not sure why I am having to potentially pay for it, (looks like its going that route).

Agreement states I am not responsible for damage once its signed for at the global shipping center:

It was signed for.

Taken directly from the agreement:

However, subject to the foregoing you will not be responsible for the loss of, or damage to, a GSP

item after its acceptance at the Global Shipping Center.

[dtexley3]

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@ted_200 wrote:

Also in those FAQ's:

Who is responsible if the item is lost or damaged?

As between you and your buyer, the risk of loss or damage to a GSP item shall remain with you until the GSP item is accepted at the Global Shipping Center or has been returned to you by Pitney Bowes from the Global Shipping Center. As between your buyer and Pitney Bowes, risk of loss or damage to a GSP item shall transfer to your buyer from Pitney Bowes and/or its third party parcel processing service providers when the GSP item leaves the Global Shipping Center.

I have no idea if this stuff is binding, nor if it is contradicted or qualified with an escape hatch somewhere else.  There are enough mountains of weasel words covering this to keep an entire team of lawyers busy for a week.  But it looks to me like eBay/PayPal/PB don't want to live up to their obligations and they're Sgt. Schultz-ing sellers to avoid paying their liabilities under the program terms.   

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@Anonymous  This is straight from eBay's FAQ and are supposed to be an accurate representation of the policies.  Please explain how the seller is in any way responsible based on the guidance in the FAQ.

[bubbleman2010]

I suspect bloggers are waiting in the wings for the outcome there was just a big article about ebay renewing its partnership with PB and what a wonderful and beneficial program it is for ebay sellers.... This story will make a nice followup....

[missjen831]

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@marnotom! wrote:

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@ted_200 wrote:

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It looks to me like eBay/PayPal/PB don't want to live up to their obligations and they're Sgt. Schultz-ing sellers to avoid paying their liabilities under the program terms.   

I'm hoping that the investigation into the chargeback will reveal Pitney Bowes' role in all this.  I'm also wondering if part of the problem may be that the chargeback only involves the seller's portion of the sale.  For whatever reason, be it carelessness on the buyer's part or the credit card issuer's part, a chargeback may not have been filed for Pitney Bowes' portion of the sale (i.e. the "import charges" and Pitney Bowes' shipping charges) and as a result they're not in the loop here.

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There won't be an investigation and the GSPs role is not going to come in to play as far as the OP's chargeback.

[missjen831]

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@gjlutz wrote:

Good observations, I would still argue that I have nothing to do with this, so I am not sure why I am having to potentially pay for it, (looks like its going that route).

Agreement states I am not responsible for damage once its signed for at the global shipping center:

It was signed for.

Taken directly from the agreement:

However, subject to the foregoing you will not be responsible for the loss of, or damage to, a GSP

item after its acceptance at the Global Shipping Center.

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That only applies to an ebay or paypal dispute. As Trinton said, a credit card chargeback is the exception to the rule. So thats why you are involved.