Freight forwarders

[boscobosco12]

Hello sellers--- In the past, I have not had any problems with buyers that have used freight forwarders.  I have a new sale  mail. I have packaged and shipped.  It was paid through a U. S. paypal account. The buyer has few but very good feedbacks.  Buyer has been member since January 21, 2020 in the Russian Federation.  I do not sell outside the 48 mainland U. S. and have marked that on ebay and paypal.  I am mildly concerned because the good reviews were probably written before the items arrived in Russia and before problems could erupt. Is using a freight forwarder circumventing my sales parameters ?  I know that previously using a forwarder negated some buyer rights but I think that has been changed.  Any ideas? Thank you. 

[a_c_green]

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@Anonymous wrote:
Hello @boscobosco12, having an item delivered to a freight forwarder is not the same as using a freight forwarder. An item can be delivered to a freight forwarder, but not be forwarded onward. This is especially common for items of a higher value, but is not limited to more expensive items. Again, just because an item was delivered to a freight forwarding company does not mean the item was forwarded by that company - the delivery could be held by the freight forwarder for inspection, the item could have been ordered by an employee of the company and delivered to them at work, or the freight forwarder may offer the option to have items picked up in person.

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I'm sorry, but this hairsplitting is almost painful to read. If a buyer has their purchase shipped to a freight forwarder, they are indeed "using" that freight forwarder's address to take delivery of their purchases, and that is all that the policy requires for the Money Back Guarantee (MBG) to be disqualified in that instance. ("Items shipped to another address after original delivery, or when the buyer uses a freight forwarder.")

You are attempting to extend the protection to mean that the MBG would remain in effect unless it could be proven that the package was actually shipped elsewhere. You have offered other possible interpretations, such as that the item might just be "held by the freight forwarder for inspection," whatever that might mean, or ordered by an employee there, or held for Local Pickup, and while one could argue that that's really a stretch (surely 99% of orders sent to a forwarder get... you know, forwarded), I would simply point out that the policy just says "uses a freight forwarder." There are no exclusions and no asterisks.

If you have your package sent to a freight forwarder, whose address is identifiable on-line as a freight forwarder, then you're "using" that freight forwarder, and that's all that counts.

[Anonymous]

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@a_c_green wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:
Hello @boscobosco12, having an item delivered to a freight forwarder is not the same as using a freight forwarder. An item can be delivered to a freight forwarder, but not be forwarded onward. This is especially common for items of a higher value, but is not limited to more expensive items. Again, just because an item was delivered to a freight forwarding company does not mean the item was forwarded by that company - the delivery could be held by the freight forwarder for inspection, the item could have been ordered by an employee of the company and delivered to them at work, or the freight forwarder may offer the option to have items picked up in person.

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I'm sorry, but this hairsplitting is almost painful to read. If a buyer has their purchase shipped to a freight forwarder, they are indeed "using" that freight forwarder's address to take delivery of their purchases, and that is all that the policy requires for the Money Back Guarantee (MBG) to be disqualified in that instance. ("Items shipped to another address after original delivery, or when the buyer uses a freight forwarder.")

You are attempting to extend the protection to mean that the MBG would remain in effect unless it could be proven that the package was actually shipped elsewhere. You have offered other possible interpretations, such as that the item might just be "held by the freight forwarder for inspection," whatever that might mean, or ordered by an employee there, or held for Local Pickup, and while one could argue that that's really a stretch (surely 99% of orders sent to a forwarder get... you know, forwarded), I would simply point out that the policy just says "uses a freight forwarder." There are no exclusions and no asterisks.

If you have your package sent to a freight forwarder, whose address is identifiable on-line as a freight forwarder, then you're "using" that freight forwarder, and that's all that counts.

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Hi @a_c_green, I can clarify that if the policy was that a buyer is not protected if they have the item shipped to, sent to, or delivered to a freight forwarder, we would state that. This is not the case, however, as protection is only lost if the item has been forwarded. I understand that the answer I have provided is not the answer you were hoping for, but the distinction I have provided is the correct context for this policy. The examples I have provided are the reasons that we do not consider delivery to a freight forwarder enough evidence to say the item was forwarded. I can only reiterate that we would need proof the item was forwarded to support the decision to withhold protection from a buyer.

[galfamtwo]

I hardly ever jump in but

  I just want to know how a seller is to determine that their package was "forwarded" when it was sent to a freight forwarding company?  that is not for the seller to determine as I see it. I ,as a seller, shipped it in good faith to the address that the buyer gave me but if that forwarder does not follow through on their part I would be held liable? My tracking shows it was delivered to the correct address ,after that it is out of my hands 

[papermoneyforme]

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@kensgiftshop wrote:

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@boscobosco12 wrote:

Is using a freight forwarder circumventing my sales parameters ?

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No, because you are still shipping to a US address.

Once the freight forwarder receives the package and reships it to their customer, if there are any problems, it's between the buyer and the freight forwarder.

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Wrong if they file through Paypal

[papermoneyforme]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@better_than_ice_cream wrote:

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@pburn wrote:

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Generally speaking, buyers lose MBG protection if a package is forwarded.

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Not any more.  If you wade through this thread (and it's a long one) you will see that @Anonymous does not agree:

eBay Policy Change/Seller Protection Change when Buyer uses a Freight Forwarder? 

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Hi @better_than_ice_cream, I must clear up a potential misunderstanding - I did not state anything that should be seen as a disagreement on my part with @pburn's comment about a buyer losing protection when they forward a package. I have specifically clarified multiple times on the boards that an item is not eligible for protection if it has been forwarded. The thread you have linked to is an example of one of my responses that clarifies this policy. 

I will reiterate here, a buyer is no longer protected if there is evidence that they have forwarded an item beyond it's original destination address. You are welcome to contact Customer Service if you have any questions or concerns about a specific transaction.

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Will Ebay cover any claims through Paypal because that is not their policy!

[pburn]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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I can only reiterate that we would need proof the item was forwarded to support the decision to withhold protection from a buyer.

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So, not to put too fine a point on it, here, if I sell an item to a buyer registered in Russia, as the OP did, that means their primary address registered with eBay would show an address in Russia. If that same buyer used a freight forwarder in Delaware, their shipping address would be Delaware. 

That should "prove" they were using a freight forwarder, right? So how would a seller go about "proving" that to eBay? 

Would the very fact that the buyer's primary address was outside the U.S., but the shipping address was that of any of the freight forwarders, be enough "proof?"

[pburn]

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@papermoneyforme wrote:

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Will Ebay cover any claims through Paypal because that is not their policy!

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Why would eBay cover claims through PayPal? They are two separate companies with two separate sets of return policies. Would you expect eBay to cover any claims filed through a credit card company, too? Because a credit card company has different return policies, too. 

And eBay staff are not responsible for explaining PayPal policy.

Would you expect to be able to return an item you bought at Target based on Walmart's return policies? 

I mean, no offense, but . . . your expectation seems a little far fetched.

[Anonymous]

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@pburn wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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I can only reiterate that we would need proof the item was forwarded to support the decision to withhold protection from a buyer.

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So, not to put too fine a point on it, here, if I sell an item to a buyer registered in Russia, as the OP did, that means their primary address registered with eBay would show an address in Russia. If that same buyer used a freight forwarder in Delaware, their shipping address would be Delaware. 

That should "prove" they were using a freight forwarder, right? So how would a seller go about "proving" that to eBay? 

Would the very fact that the buyer's primary address was outside the U.S., but the shipping address was that of any of the freight forwarders, be enough "proof?"

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Hi @pburn, a buyer's registration address is not an indication of if they had an item forwarded. It is not uncommon for buyers who make purchases while travelling internationally to have items delivered to a nearby freight forwarder for in person pickup. Also, members do not always update their registration address, so this is another reason why we are unable to look to the registration address as potential proof of an item being forwarded. 

If a seller has concerns about an item being forwarded, they can contact Customer Service to discuss this in more detail and see what options are available.

[pburn]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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Hi @pburn, a buyer's registration address is not an indication of if they had an item forwarded. It is not uncommon for buyers who make purchases while travelling internationally to have items delivered to a nearby freight forwarder for in person pickup. Also, members do not always update their registration address, so this is another reason why we are unable to look to the registration address as potential proof of an item being forwarded. 

If a seller has concerns about an item being forwarded, they can contact Customer Service to discuss this in more detail and see what options are available.

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@Anonymous 

Thanks for those examples. Those are all understandable points.

What would be good documentation for a seller to submit to prove an item had been forwarded? 

Asking for a friend . . .

[gracieallen01]

It would seem that unless you have confirmation, in a visible from, from a freight forwarder, that ebay CS will read and accept as proving that an item was forwarded, and they can and will do anything about it, there is no limitation on whether a package was or wasn't forwarded.

I can envision people who can, and will, drive a Mack truck through that opening.

[papermoneyforme]

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@pburn wrote:

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@papermoneyforme wrote:

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Will Ebay cover any claims through Paypal because that is not their policy!

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Why would eBay cover claims through PayPal? They are two separate companies with two separate sets of return policies. Would you expect eBay to cover any claims filed through a credit card company, too? Because a credit card company has different return policies, too. 

And eBay staff are not responsible for explaining PayPal policy.

Would you expect to be able to return an item you bought at Target based on Walmart's return policies? 

I mean, no offense, but . . . your expectation seems a little far fetched.

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So are some of Ebay staff replies through omission.

Maybe some newer sellers or sellers that do not know everything should be told the truth.

Ebay staff know full well what the Paypal policy is and sellers should not be snowed with false security!

[papermoneyforme]

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@gracieallen01 wrote:

It would seem that unless you have confirmation, in a visible from, from a freight forwarder, that ebay CS will read and accept as proving that an item was forwarded, and they can and will do anything about it, there is no limitation on whether a package was or wasn't forwarded.

I can envision people who can, and will, drive a Mack truck through that opening.

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I agree 100% with your comments.

[monster-deals]

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@rosszonebricks wrote:

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  Asking for the pic of the original packaging and label really covers you, 

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No picture shown to ebay will save you from anything.

[ittybitnot]

No picture shown to ebay will save you from anything.

Either will any ebay message from the buyer saying "my item just arrived in somewhereistan, Ukraine, or whereever"...... since messages are no longer considered in SNAD claims either.  At least if the MBG still applies, a return shipping label sent to the forwarder address will suffice for a return, unlike the eBay GSP or that new service they are offering. 

The new scam program for this is to NOT use the label sent by the seller, but to simply ship a cheap trinket to a place in the seller's zipcode and upload THAT d/confirmation number for the eBay claim.  It is obvious (to anyone but eBay) "cheap trinkets" are ordered and  often shipped even before the SNAD claim is made for that Iphone. 

[Anonymous]

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@pburn wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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Hi @pburn, a buyer's registration address is not an indication of if they had an item forwarded. It is not uncommon for buyers who make purchases while travelling internationally to have items delivered to a nearby freight forwarder for in person pickup. Also, members do not always update their registration address, so this is another reason why we are unable to look to the registration address as potential proof of an item being forwarded. 

If a seller has concerns about an item being forwarded, they can contact Customer Service to discuss this in more detail and see what options are available.

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@Anonymous 

Thanks for those examples. Those are all understandable points.

What would be good documentation for a seller to submit to prove an item had been forwarded? 

Asking for a friend . . .

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Hi @pburn, I wouldn't be able to supply an all encompassing list of what would qualify as proof, but confirmation from the buyer of the item being forwarded, or documentation from the courier would be the most likely pieces of evidence to support that the shipment was forwarded.