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Fees on Sales tax

When did Ebay start charging fees/commission on sales tax?  Do we have any input on this? It's rather greedy.

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Re: Fees on Sales tax

Of course your employer does not charge fees on Fed/State tax because that is income tax and this discussion is about sales tax. When a customer uses a credit card at Darden/Olive Garden then OG pays fees (not the customer) on the sales tax because they are charged fees on the total bill-which adds to their expenses and gets included in their prices. So yes-it is normal to charge fees on sales tax because credit card companies do it all the time. Ebay has to deal with every tax municipality in the US, OG does not. Darden/OG only has to deal with the tax municipality where there B&M stores are located.

Message 16 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

@yveandall 


@dhbookds wrote:

But Ebay won't allow us to do this. Why?

 

Because the states added the "marketplace" tax remittance requirement in their laws..........ebay had no choice.

eBay has a choice to charge us a low 1% to 3% charge like they (used to charge) and most other merchants charge as a processing fee. eBay covers processing costs and makes a hefty profit from State Tax (and shipping charges).

 

Shortly after eBay Managed Payments, eBay DECIDED they could also profit from state taxes by eliminating the processing fee - (actually adding the processing fee to the Final Value fees and just calling it final value fees).  Now earning a COMMISSON (Final Value Fee) is accepted and defended by many sellers on not only the item you are selling but the complete transaction (including State Tax and Shipping).

 

Last June, eBay found they could start charging the advertising fee on not only the item being advertised, but also the State Tax and Shipping ChargeseBay welcomes rising taxes and shipping costs as a source of increased revenue (sellers need to recover these extra charges from buyers).

 

For those defending eBay: If the Final value fee is already charged on the total transaction including state tax, why does eBay need the extra Advertising Fee on state tax? 

 

 

Message 17 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

@dbfolks166mt wrote:

Well you do know corporate greed IS the American way. 

 

     I would be surprised if eBay is making much, if anything, on collecting, remitting and managing the software required to handle the sales tax. For a $100 item with a state sales tax rate of 8% and a 12.9% FVF you are talking a whopping $1.03 addition to the FVF's. Factor it into your pricing.

     In exchange eBay has to manage the collection and remittance of the tax to the states on a periodic basis and adjust software programs as the tax laws change. All of this requires resources: people, software, office space, etc. which gets paid out of that minor fee. From my perspective it's cheap accounting service.  

Realistically, it's probably not that bad. After some up front programming. They most likely are subscribed to feeds that keep track of all the stuff based on zip codes and what is taxed depending on category.  

 

     Tend to agree. For a corporation that has a large IT staff, accountants and lawyers this is probably pretty straight forward but not something I would want to handle on my own which is why I consider it a bargain for the fees they are charging. I cannot imagine the issues if each individual seller had to this on their own. Wise decision by the court to put the burden on the merchant of record.

 

For instance, back when I did support on POS software we had to answer questions for some stores that sell clothing and I guess it's tax free if it's under $100. Not to mention some states do tax free days.

 

Exactly and I for one don't want to constantly monitor and handle those constant changes. 

 

In any event. After the service figures out the amounts. They'll be tied into whatever services the states have to transfer the money at least once a month. Possibly even daily. Although it wouldn't surprise me if some states are mailed a check.

 

 

Barring that. Even if they didn't take a percentage on sales tax. They'd probably just increase their cut. So in the end it's a wash. At least the current way, you have a chance to not pay the fee on states with low or no sales tax. 

 

100% agreed. 

Message 18 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

Why do people keep SAYING THIS???
Charging you fees on taxes is NOT the norm.!! It depends on how you are looking at it. 
My employer doesn't charge me 12.9% to pay my Federal and State taxes. 
It's "baked" into their business model and it's part of making money off my labor.
We went to Olive Garden. When I paid my bill they "withheld" my sales tax. Did they charge me 12.9% for doing so? Not in a million years. Because it's "baked" into their business model . Check your bill again I am quite sure sales tax was added to the bill at least it is at my Olive Garden. Of course they didn't charge you the merchant fees that the CC companies charge which is between 3-5% of the TOTAL transaction including taxes and tip. That is what the merchant bakes into their pricing and it IS the norm. They love customers who pay cash since they don't have to pay the CC merchant fees. 
And Darden has OG's in almost every state. Evidently they must be smarter than Ebay, as they have figured out how to pay ALL these taxes to myriad states and cities without charging a fee to the people making them money.
Credit cards are NOT charging "fees" to handle taxes. So quit saying it!!! Of course not but they are charging merchant fees on the sales tax. The merchant is responsible for remitting the sales tax to the state. 
They are charging "fees" because they lend you the money to make a purchase. Or pay a bill. HUGE difference!!! They don't care if there's sales tax or not. They just charge a fee on the TOTAL amount of what they're lending you. Period!! Remitting sales tax to whatever entity the tax is owed is a cost that's baked into their business model. And if they dared to start charging an extra fee to process taxes?
They find their cards shredded in microseconds.
And Ebay is not "lending" any money to anyone. Not even close.
And we could have a whole new debate as to why the "buyers" aren't paying the tax processing fee instead of the sellers. Purely programming simplicity. 
I can EASILY find small business tax programs online (cost:6-7 hundred dollars) that track and pay sales taxes to ALL towns, cities, and states! It updates DAILY on changing rates and at the end of the quarter, or year, you hit a button and BOOM> All taxes are paid. It's simple. It's easy. A 14 year old could do it. 
But Ebay won't allow us to do this. Why? Because the Supreme court said so in the Wayfair vs South Dakota decision. They put the burden on the ecommerce company. Now if you sell on other venues that don't collect sales tax then of course the burden is on you to collect and remit those taxes to your state. 
Ebay is probably generating hundreds of millions of dollars of profit annually by charging these "tax handling" fees. I seriously doubt that while it would be easy to estimate the sales taxes eBay collects during a year by looking at the annual report it's not so easy to identify eBay's cost for doing so. 
For those claiming it's only a "small amount" let's do some hypotheticals. 
Using Ebay's stats they did 100 BILLION in merchandising volume in 2020. Tax rates vary...so let's round it off to 5% sales tax. Which means Ebay collected 5 Billion in tax revenue to be doled out. So what's 12.9% of that?  EBay's revenue in 2021 was 10.2 billion of which approximately 4 billion was for domestic sales. Using your 5% sales tax rate which is low that equates to $200M in sales tax at 12.9% that equates to $25M. 
A "paltry" 645 MILLION??? For something that can be accomplished with a few simple tax programs and a half dozen employees? Yeah....that's a pretty cool income stream for Ebay. Not sure where you get the half dozen employees do you have insight into eBay's personnel system and the staffing and IT requirements to do this? 
I can talk myself blue in the face over this but too many sellers have just resigned themselves to "that's the way it is". If they quit charging the FVF's on the sales tax eBay would simply adjust something else to maintain the revenue. Their job as a corporation is to maximize the profit to their shareholders. It is the way it is and smart sellers have adjusted their cost model to cover the paltry FVF's o the sales tax.  
Okay then...."that's the way it is".

Message 19 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

@lepke1979 wrote:
@dbfolks166mt wrote:

Well you do know corporate greed IS the American way. 

 

     I would be surprised if eBay is making much, if anything, on collecting, remitting and managing the software required to handle the sales tax. For a $100 item with a state sales tax rate of 8% and a 12.9% FVF you are talking a whopping $1.03 addition to the FVF's. Factor it into your pricing.

     In exchange eBay has to manage the collection and remittance of the tax to the states on a periodic basis and adjust software programs as the tax laws change. All of this requires resources: people, software, office space, etc. which gets paid out of that minor fee. From my perspective it's cheap accounting service.  

Realistically, it's probably not that bad. After some up front programming. They most likely are subscribed to feeds that keep track of all the stuff based on zip codes and what is taxed depending on category.

 

For instance, back when I did support on POS software we had to answer questions for some stores that sell clothing and I guess it's tax free if it's under $100. Not to mention some states do tax free days.

 

In any event. After the service figures out the amounts. They'll be tied into whatever services the states have to transfer the money at least once a month. Possibly even daily. Although it wouldn't surprise me if some states are mailed a check.

@lepke1979 - you're right, the incremental ongoing costs to eBay beyond the initial set up years ago are likely not that high (relatively speaking for a company their size/available resources).

 

I believe early on eBay may have partnered with Avalara, though not sure if that's still true today, but it's likely they are using a customized version of existing 3rd party SaaS solutions instead of building their own program from the ground up.

 

Either way, in my opinion, if other marketplaces and payment processors can somehow manage to cover their costs of compliance at around 3%, there's no good reason eBay *needs* ~13% to cover theirs.

 

Not to mention I'm pretty sure the 15 year tax sharing deal eBay cut with the city of San Jose goes a long way toward covering those costs as well.

 

The deal designates all sales on the site that ship anywhere in California as having occurred at eBay HQ - thus allowing the city to collect the local tax that would normally be spread out amongst various cities in the state where buyers actually reside.

 

San Jose gets 1% of all CA sales and eBay gets a kickback of 30% of anything they collect over $5 million a year - estimated to be worth $150M to eBay but of course that could be more or less depending on how much tax they collect.

 

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-tax-report-state/no-strings-attached-tax-deal-shows-depth-of-eba... 

 

     When you get down to the bottom line, and that is what this is all about, I really don't care what eBay does with regards to their revenue generating efforts that is what they are in business for. Buyers and sellers either accept and adapt or they can go elsewhere. 

     My only concern is my own bottom line and whether I am making a net profit and a decent ROI. I don't have all that many buyers asking me how much I paid for the item and what my profits are. At least eBay has full disclosure on their fees. How many sellers would be willing to put their costs into their listing description and the profit percentage they are making? Would they get as many complaints about how much they are making as eBay seems to get about the fees on taxes among other things?

Message 20 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

@yveandall 

@dhbookds wrote:

But Ebay won't allow us to do this. Why?

 

Because the states added the "marketplace" tax remittance requirement in their laws..........ebay had no choice.

eBay has a choice to charge us a low 1% to 3% charge like they (used to charge) and most other merchants charge as a processing fee. eBay covers processing costs and makes a hefty profit from State Tax (and shipping charges). So why do you care?

 

Shortly after eBay Managed Payments, eBay DECIDED they could also profit from state taxes by eliminating the processing fee - (actually adding the processing fee to the Final Value fees and just calling it final value fees).  Now earning a COMMISSON (Final Value Fee) is accepted and defended by many sellers on not only the item you are selling but the complete transaction (including State Tax and Shipping). While I don't defend it I am glad they are the ones handling it and not me. 

 

Last June, eBay found they could start charging the advertising fee on not only the item being advertised, but also the State Tax and Shipping Charges eBay welcomes rising taxes and shipping costs as a source of increased revenue (sellers need to recover these extra charges from buyers). I don't use PL so not a major concern I never got pulled into that death spiral. 

 

For those defending eBay: If the Final value fee is already charged on the total transaction including state tax, why does eBay need the extra Advertising Fee on state tax? 

Message 21 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

@dbfolks166mt 

@yveandall 

@dhbookds wrote:

But Ebay won't allow us to do this. Why?

 

Because the states added the "marketplace" tax remittance requirement in their laws..........ebay had no choice.

eBay has a choice to charge us a low 1% to 3% charge like they (used to charge) and most other merchants charge as a processing fee. eBay covers processing costs and makes a hefty profit from State Tax (and shipping charges). So why do you care?

Same reason I don't want to pay any company for a service they are not providing.  eBay EARNS a commission by providing my items on their marketplace. eBay charges a commission on Tax (and shipping) but are not doing anything to earn the commission. Charging a reasonable processing fee is fine. Sellers MUST inflate pricing to cover eBay's inflated charges [commissions (not transaction fees) earned above those of the actual item being sold]. 

 

Shortly after eBay Managed Payments, eBay DECIDED they could also profit from state taxes by eliminating the processing fee - (actually adding the processing fee to the Final Value fees and just calling it final value fees).  Now earning a COMMISSON (Final Value Fee) is accepted and defended by many sellers on not only the item you are selling but the complete transaction (including State Tax and Shipping). While I don't defend it I am glad they are the ones handling it and not me.

So am I.  eBay MUST do it for you by state law(s). They have no choice. It should be treated as the business expense it is (like every other company that charges a transaction fee and not a combined transaction fee AND commission - eBays current combined Final Value Fee).

 

Last June, eBay found they could start charging the advertising fee on not only the item being advertised, but also the State Tax and Shipping Charges eBay welcomes rising taxes and shipping costs as a source of increased revenue (sellers need to recover these extra charges from buyers). I don't use PL so not a major concern I never got pulled into that death spiral. 

I would venture to say, adding this "death spiral" cut into all sellers bottom line whether you use it or not by adding a layer of ads. And those that do use it need to pay (since June) the Ad Fee on Tax and Shipping as well as the item without any additional benefit (just additional eBay revenue)

 

For those defending eBay: If the Final value fee is already charged on the total transaction including state tax, why does eBay need the extra Advertising Fee on state tax? 

Message 22 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

Who really feels "taxes" is legal besides the 1%? Property tax is the foulest. 

Message 23 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

It's rather greedy.

 

@yveandall 

 

Actually, it's a bargain accounting cost to remit all the taxes to each buyer's state for you, in my opinion.

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Re: Fees on Sales tax


@mtgraves7984 wrote:

It's rather greedy.

 

@yveandall 

 

Actually, it's a bargain accounting cost to remit all the taxes to each buyer's state for you, in my opinion.


@mtgraves7984 out of curiosity, how many states would you exceed the economic nexus for individually?

 

https://www.avalara.com/us/en/learn/guides/state-by-state-guide-economic-nexus-laws.html 

 

It always surprises me when sellers say eBay is doing this "for them." eBay does not collect and remit sales tax "on behalf" of sellers, because the seller isn't the one with the tax obligation.

 

Buyers have the tax obligation - they are the ones who are legally required to pay it. Previously, sellers were legally required in some situations to help the states facilitate the buyer's tax obligation by collecting the tax buyers are legally required to pay and remitting it to the state.

 

Remotes sales tax laws simply expanded those situations to include not just physical nexus, but also economic nexus over a certain threshold as well. Most sellers here individually would not reach those thresholds and would likely continue only having to remit for their home state and maybe a couple others, but not likely all states with sales tax.

 

Regardless of any of that, marketplace facilitator laws put the requirement to collect and remit buyer paid taxes on eBay, not the individual seller. At this point as the laws are written, sales tax on eBay has nothing to do with sellers any more - it's a legal obligation for the buyer to pay and for eBay to collect and remit to the states.

 

There is no part of that equation that is "on behalf of sellers" as marketplace facilitator laws are currently written - it's between buyers, eBay and the states. That's why eBay collected sales tax does not appear on sellers' 1099-K forms for income tax purposes - it is never paid to or received by the seller and therefore the seller has no part in it.

Message 25 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

 Same reason I don't want to pay any company for a service they are not providing.  eBay EARNS a commission by providing my items on their marketplace. eBay charges a commission on Tax (and shipping) but are not doing anything to earn the commission. Charging a reasonable processing fee is fine. Sellers MUST inflate pricing to cover eBay's inflated charges [commissions (not transaction fees) earned above those of the actual item being sold]. 

 

     But eBay is providing a service by collecting and remitting the sales tax to the states. They also have to handle the sales tax refunds to the buyers in the event of returns and handle the adjustments to the state remissions. I have no idea, and neither does anyone else, what the overhead and costs are for eBay to handle the processing so I cannot make a determination if it is "fair" or not. If sellers are on such a narrow processing margin that what amounts to about a 1% cost increase they are probably operating on too narrow of a profit margin to begin with and buyers are not likely to notice or care about a 1% "inflated" price if they want the item. 

     The good thing is sellers have a choice given the expansion in the number of ecommerce sites and are free to go elsewhere to sell their items. Personally I began to diversify across multiple ecommerce and other selling forums long ago and eBay constitutes less than 20% of my sales these days and that number continues to decline every year. EBay is not likely to change the current FVF application unless it is to further detriment to the seller. 

     

Message 26 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

We know that eBay was charging a low processing fee that covered the cost of Tax Processing when they first started Managed Payments. We know that every other vendor can process taxes using a similar low processing fee.

 

We know eBay changed their fee by adding commission on top of that transaction fee - not to handle the cost but to make it "easy for sellers to understand" and added significant profit on tax processing in the way of a commission on tax charged to sellers (through the new combined Final Value Fee).

 

We know in June eBay added State Tax and Shipping to calculations on Ad Fees that further increased the take from sellers on Tax.

 

I see sellers saying eBay needs to charge the 12.9% (plus more % in ad revenue on State Tax) to process taxes instead of 1-3% like every other vendor/processor.  I have never seen eBay state the extra "Commission" is nothing more than a byproduct of extra money they receive as a result of "Simplifying fees for sellers". I have seen increases in State Tax and Shipping result in a revenue increase for eBay (eBay not just covering processing costs).

 

eBay is not going to change FVF. Many vocal sellers seem to prefer having the one combined fee (even if it means paying an EXTRA 8-9% on transaction fees)

 

 

Message 27 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

@paraphernalia_palace ,

 

Instead of complaining about it you should become a shareholder. 

 

My favorite quote from Warren Buffet. 

If you don't find a way to make money while you sleep, you will work until you die.

 

If you start early enough you don't need to invest a lot to end up with a lot due to the power of compounding by the time you retire. If you invested $100.00 per month in a S&P 500 index fund for 45 years you will end up with almost a million dollars at age 65.

Message 28 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

@joliztoyco ,

 

When a Olive Garden brings his family in for diner and spends $100.00 for food, drinks, tip, and sales taxes they have to about 3% of the $100.00 to their payment processor when a debit or credit card is used. 

 

While Olive Garden does not withhold 3% of the tip and tax amount from the servers I'm sure they build it into the price of the food and drinks. 

Message 29 of 66
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Re: Fees on Sales tax

Hi @yveandall 

 

eBay started charging fees on sales tax when it completed its move to Managed Payments as its payment processor.  Prior to that ... PayPal was charging fees on sales tax.

 

Payment processors base their fees on the total amount of the buyer's payment ... regardless of what makes up that payment.

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