Empty Box Scam

[billiards74]

So, I sell (among other things) Rolex watches.

Last Tuesday evening, a customer having 60 or so feedbacks (all positive) makes a purchase for a $2700 Rolex. Promptly, Wednesday morning, I package up the watch, winding it, setting the time, and doing the final wipe-down to remove any residual fingerprints, and get it shipped out in a medium flat-rate box through the USPS.

The item was delivered on Friday at just at 3pm. Shows that it was signed for by the intended recipient. 

Friday night / Saturday morning (12:20 midnight), I get a message from the buyer saying he received an empty box. Naturally, I asked if he signed for it and if he himself opened it. No answer to those questions. I also asked for photos of EXACTLY what he received. He sends me 3 photos. 2 were of the inside of the box showing packing material, and one was of the top of the box where he cut through the shipping label and opened the box. In his initial statement he stated that he also "checked around the property and checked with the neighbors" to see if he could find the "merchandise".

So, being a Saturday, I could do nothing regarding opening a postal investigation. The watch was insured for the full sale price. So, just filing a claim with the PO wouldn't do much good without an official investigation.

Yesterday, I contacted both the police within HIS jurisdiction and the Post Office's inspector's office. This enraged the buyer. 

After learning that I had opened a case with the PO, he decided, last night, to open an SNAD case with eBay. He also stated that he had already acquired a police report.

In one of his responses, he threatened "since I know your address, I will harass you". Adding, " I wouldn’t be surprised to receive negative feedback which will also ruin your credibility as a perfect seller for the next 12 months.". I know, I know. Both violations of the TOS. That will be discussed with eBay when customer service opens.

He has maintained that he has no intention of complying or cooperating with any investigation since I won't just issue him a refund.

After going through his feedback, I've actually looked at the types of items he's been buying. Get this... 90% of the items he's been purchasing have been for $0.99 or less. Some are auctions for a actual penny that is for local pick-up only; guaranteeing positive feedback upon completion of the $0.01 sale!

I have reported him and he has since been turned over to eBay's "Buyer Risk Assessment Team" due to evidence of suspicious or fradulent activity.

I still have no Idea as to how this is going to play out. 

Words of advice or encouragement anyone?????

[vintagecraze50]

The customer, eg, scammer sent pictures of a box sliced open correct. So he supposedly signed for a box that was sliced open, right. That box would have been witnessed and suppose to be stamped by the USPS as damaged. You have a case here with the USPS for sure. The buyer needs to comply with the postal service investigation. If he does not then that alone is the highest predictor of a possible scam.

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@billiards74 wrote:

USPS case number has been included in the case.

I'm on the phone with eBay now (on hold as usual) waiting for a supervisor in the High Dollar Claims Department.

Not looking good here. They're giving the buyer every excuse. I've pointed out to them that electrical tape is insufficent to secure the box, let alone a single piece. eBay insists that even though everyone along the way to the buyer would have caught such a blaitent breech of shipping protocol, the delivering postman could have stolen the item. So, if there even the smallest chance that someone else COULD have done it, side with the buyer. Doesn't matter how improbable or not plausable that scenario may be!

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[d-k_treasures]

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@hawgryders wrote:
If you used the Ebay shipping system the label has the item number

Couple the ability to see what is in the box with the insurance amount & the possibility for setting it aside for a quick "smartphone check" is not unheard of --- which makes it possible that the package was tampered with

Just sayin' ............

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But you can barely make out the item # on the shipping label. 

[d-k_treasures]

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@billiards74 wrote:

Sure did! I filed a police report with my local sheriff's office yesterday morning and included all the communication between myself and the buyer. This included the threats of harassment where he stated "I know your address and I will harass you".

I'm expecting a phone call at some point either today or tomorrow from the Post Office's inspector in charge of this case to give him the item number of the police report along with the communications.

I WILL NOT GO DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT!!!!!

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If he filed a SNAD, make sure you upload all of that into the case, especially the police report #.

[ymeagainlord]

Yeah it's TINY, but it also doesn't print by default.

[moonbloodstone]

Many Good points here OP.  

Did You check any social media?

If the Police Got the report Did You ask them to press charges? I am pretty sure that amount is Grand Theft!

I am not sure about this BUT Then did/would they send a report to all the Pawn Shops?  I would consider sending a report to each Pawn Shop with the Serial Number and description of the Watch.  

Maybe one days' pay for a private investigator  Might get a picture of the Buyer wearing the Watch!

Did You call PayPal to see IF a Credit card was used with his Name on it? You might be able to get them to check on that. He might have used a Stolen credit card! Honestly, how does a person BUY a Watch that Expensive when they normally buy cheap items? 

[zydecojmb]

Breathe and take a look to see if what I see helps. 1. We all know He is all bark and has no bite. The good news is you have and kept the papertrail of hard evidence--(keep the papertrail!!!)  I agree with getting the due diligence files and paperwork others already mentioned (more papertrails of evidence you can legally "provide" to any company or agency if need be) but mainly I'd think it would be most effective in giving YOU the peace of mind that YOU are not powerless and at someone else's mercy.

 Do what you have been doing, keep documenting all you have and can from now on along the way, whenever you have contact with agencies and authorities make sure you get that person's name and write it down and summarize that conversation in a notebook for best results. 

 keep in mind he still doesn't really have the final legal recourse or power over or on you. All in all-- any and every  thing he clearly cannot substantiate his accusations, claims, and is clearly lying hiding behind his despiration of threats to go after you--he is afraid of getting caught!  

More to the point, tampering with mail and mail fraud is a federal offense/crime so you can always find out if he has federal warrants or see if this is something you want to go after federally, not local to him.

--a federal matter where you have all the power, authority, recourse, and rights at the end of the day. 

[shesellsseashells73]

Reading this makes me feel anxious for this seller - and eager to hear the outcome.

This is just awful that someone would do something like this.  And if the buyer set up an account to "get away" with it by buying 99 cent items for positive feedback - well - wow.  

[d-k_treasures]

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@ymeagainlord wrote:
Yeah it's TINY, but it also doesn't print by default.

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That's true - you don't have to put it on there. I do think it's turned on now by default, though, because it's on my labels, and I never select anything like that.

I just never bothered to turn it off yet. 

[a_c_green]

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@d-k_treasures wrote:

That's true - you don't have to put it on there. I do think it's turned on now by default, though, because it's on my labels, and I never select anything like that.

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It's not turned on by default, but I believe it's a "sticky" setting, so that once you do set it (such as by request of a re-shipper, so that they don't have to open your package to see whose purchase it is), you need to remember to turn it off again afterwards, or it will be applied to all future shipments as well. The Message to Buyer field is the same way.

[fuzzbuzztuxedo]

Sorry I don't have an extra advice to give in addition to all the great advice given here. I really hope you catch and bring him to justice!!! This is outrageous and he needs to be punished. **bleep** is wrong with people these days!!

[d-k_treasures]

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@a_c_green wrote:

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@d-k_treasures wrote:

That's true - you don't have to put it on there. I do think it's turned on now by default, though, because it's on my labels, and I never select anything like that.

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It's not turned on by default, but I believe it's a "sticky" setting, so that once you do set it (such as by request of a re-shipper, so that they don't have to open your package to see whose purchase it is), you need to remember to turn it off again afterwards, or it will be applied to all future shipments as well. The Message to Buyer field is the same way.

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So is the 'display postage' checkbox.

When i ship to a reshipper, I write the item # so that they can actually see it. It would be tough to make out those numbers in a warehouse.

[vintagecraze50]

It is very troublesome when an item of this price has to be refunded before a postal investigation. This is a RULE that I believe should be changed on Ebay. A seller should have the right to a postal investigation before funds of this magnitude to be released back to a potentially scamming buyer.  

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@billiards74 wrote:

So, I sell (among other things) Rolex watches.

Last Tuesday evening, a customer having 60 or so feedbacks (all positive) makes a purchase for a $2700 Rolex. Promptly, Wednesday morning, I package up the watch, winding it, setting the time, and doing the final wipe-down to remove any residual fingerprints, and get it shipped out in a medium flat-rate box through the USPS.

The item was delivered on Friday at just at 3pm. Shows that it was signed for by the intended recipient. 

Friday night / Saturday morning (12:20 midnight), I get a message from the buyer saying he received an empty box. Naturally, I asked if he signed for it and if he himself opened it. No answer to those questions. I also asked for photos of EXACTLY what he received. He sends me 3 photos. 2 were of the inside of the box showing packing material, and one was of the top of the box where he cut through the shipping label and opened the box. In his initial statement he stated that he also "checked around the property and checked with the neighbors" to see if he could find the "merchandise".

So, being a Saturday, I could do nothing regarding opening a postal investigation. The watch was insured for the full sale price. So, just filing a claim with the PO wouldn't do much good without an official investigation.

Yesterday, I contacted both the police within HIS jurisdiction and the Post Office's inspector's office. This enraged the buyer. 

After learning that I had opened a case with the PO, he decided, last night, to open an SNAD case with eBay. He also stated that he had already acquired a police report.

In one of his responses, he threatened "since I know your address, I will harass you". Adding, " I wouldn’t be surprised to receive negative feedback which will also ruin your credibility as a perfect seller for the next 12 months.". I know, I know. Both violations of the TOS. That will be discussed with eBay when customer service opens.

He has maintained that he has no intention of complying or cooperating with any investigation since I won't just issue him a refund.

After going through his feedback, I've actually looked at the types of items he's been buying. Get this... 90% of the items he's been purchasing have been for $0.99 or less. Some are auctions for a actual penny that is for local pick-up only; guaranteeing positive feedback upon completion of the $0.01 sale!

I have reported him and he has since been turned over to eBay's "Buyer Risk Assessment Team" due to evidence of suspicious or fradulent activity.

I still have no Idea as to how this is going to play out. 

Words of advice or encouragement anyone?????

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[vintagecraze50]

Yeah, ebay should scare the hell out of any seller or any buyer with a rule that states all empty box claims are subject to a postal service investigation done by the USPS via seller or buyer request to the postal service, prior to decisions made on a case. The Policy here state a buyer and seller will be protected in an empty box claim but there is no say of how. This rule could be a how. If it could be used legally, ethically and would not violate any good business practice issue hurting a seller or a buyer in any way. Just an idea.

[vintagecraze50]

Postal service carriers pilfering a box with unknown contents is most likely a fairly rare occurance. I could see if the bx had a label that suggested there were expensive items in it , maybe.

[billiards74]

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@vintagecraze50 wrote:
Yeah, ebay should scare the hell out of any seller or any buyer with a rule that states all empty box claims are subject to a postal service investigation done by the USPS via seller or buyer request to the postal service, prior to decisions made on a case. The Policy here state a buyer and seller will be protected in an empty box claim but there is no say of how. This rule could be a how. If it could be used legally, ethically and would not violate any good business practice issue hurting a seller or a buyer in any way. Just an idea.

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Under optimal circumstances, I'd say you're right. 

After giving the whole eBay model lots of thought over the past 5 days, I've come to this realization:

All selling sites like eBay (or financial institutions like PayPal, Mastercard, Visa, etc...) will ultimately be lop-sided in either the buyer's favor or the seller's favor. When it's lop-sided in the buyer's favor, scams perpitrated by buyers run rampant (as many of us already know happens here on eBay). When it's lop-sided in the seller's favor, buyers get scared and refuse to do business in venues where they PERCIEVE there is a high probablity of being burned themselves (whether real or not).

eBay has decided that, since they would rather their platform be the former of the two. They are not interested in what is legal or legally binding between the two parties. Were this a case brought before a judge, the results of a USPS investigation would be sufficient evidence to make a rational, informed, and unbiased ruling. Since eBay isn't a court of law, the rational, the unbiased, the plausible, and the probable make no difference. The only thing that remains is, the possible. 

Since what is technically "possible" (regardless of how statistically improbable or implausible) is the ONLY factor eBay will consider, eBay will rule in the buyer's favor with only minimal "hoops" for the buyer to jump through.

eBay knows that we are ALL individuals. As such, individually, we do not have the power to force any change within the eBay system. eBay has decided that - as far as sellers are concerned - they will take the P.T. Barnum approach... "There's a sucker born every minute." Since that's the case, they have no reason to make buyers wait for a completed USPS investigation. Their policy is to get the issue resolved in eBay's favor. If the seller gets screwed in the process, he can take the buyer to court; in which case, it isn't eBay's problem at that point.