mam98031 • Volunteer Community Member • Buyer/Seller since 1999
We recently had three item not as described cases opened on orders made by 0 feedback freight forwarder buyers sending orders to Chinese forwarding companies. The following ensued:
- Buyer opens Item not as described case claiming scratches, doesn't perform etc.
- Buyer returns an empty envelope or box
- We escalate the case with Ebay FB team as they agreed freight forwarded orders aren't eligible for MBG.
- Buyer successfully overturns each ruling with the reason "Seller agreed to provide refund but did not". Ebay FB team clarifies as long as return tracking provided on an ebay label is successfully returned then the buyer is entitled to a refund.
- We ask for clarification on ebay MBG FAQ, where exclusions for MBG include "The buyer used third party freight forwarding or mail redirection." Ebay FB team clarifies this is only for if the buyer wants the item returned from the forwarded country i.e China.
- We're left holding the bag on these orders when we could have issued 50% restocking fee. Either way buyer keeps his funds and the item.
Policy link here with screenshot below
Is this correct that MBG is still valid for forwarders as long as they use the Ebay provided return label? I'm surprised Ebay didn't include this note when mentioning on the exclusions list or reworded the excerpt above. We opened up forwarding orders after reviewing the FAQ but it looks like we're mistaken, and based on what I've seen other sellers recommend per this FAQ, many of you are also mistaken.
This doesn't insure that the package can only be signed by the buyer. The above policy doesn't say that. They just have to be 21 or above.
@brightlightbookseller wrote:Actually, it does. The middle part, that is, for "Adult Signature Restricted Delivery" (emphasis added). It's not super obvious, but the key is right here (from what they copy/pasted):
"This service requires the signature of the addressee only"
I knew there was a reason it was time for an eye appointment !!!! Thank you and my apologies to everyone for not seeing that.
I have finally confirmed that the dept. that handles this particular policy is notified that they need to change the wording to make things clearer.
Exclusions and special coverage when the item doesn't match the listing
The item was collected by a third party on behalf of the buyer | Not covered |
Withdrawal of the items in your Collection when stored in the eBay vault | Not covered Withdrawals may be covered separately by the eBay vault. |
The buyer arranged their own shipping method, such as a courier pickup | Not covered |
The item was sent to another address after original delivery | Covered:
Not covered:
|
The pink highlighted words need to get expanded on in order to be clearer. Some are mistaken as they believe the simple fact you ship the item to a Freight Forwarder voids the buyers coverage under the MBG and that is NOT correct.
To Void the MBG on a transaction the item HAS TO get shipped somewhere else after arriving at the address on the order. Doesn't matter if it is done by an actual Freight Forwarding company or just someone's neighbor.
I know many of you reading this thread understand this and others are learning it. Hopefully Ebay will add some clarification to this policy soon to make it easier to follow.
@mam98031 wrote:This doesn't insure that the package can only be signed by the buyer. The above policy doesn't say that. They just have to be 21 or above.
The USPS has several offerings of "Restricted Delivery" and they all preform the same task of only allowing the addressee to sign and accept the item.
You stated "A Freight Forwarder is not a "third party". I am not sure?
The seller is the first party
The sellers delivery service is the second party
The recipient is the third party
If the buyer authorized the Forwarding Service to collect the item on their behalf then I would say the Forwarding Service is the third party and the buyer becomes the fourth party. As I understand the Money Back Guarantee policy it essentiality states this.
I'm guessing you missed my post just a couple back. [#64]
"You stated "A Freight Forwarder is not a "third party". I am not sure?" It doesn't really matter. The fact you ship the item to the FF does NOT void the MBG. When the FF ships the item to the Buyer, that action voids the MBG. The buyer might not use an FF, maybe they have it shipped to a friend or family member and then they reship it to the buyer. It is that act of shipping the item again that voids the MBG.
This is why I put this policy in for some revisions. This is never a short process. It will take them a while if they do it at all. But it needs to be more clearly written to be sure.
@elitecircuit wrote:I don't think anyone in this thread is contending whether buyers are actually re-shipping an item or not. The contention most sellers have is burden of proof and how to establish protections in these orders.
If a change in policy wording is enacted, it should include specifically in fine print or further link that buyer confirmation in ebay messages is required to confirm freight forwarding services are being used to export / re-ship an item. This is a very specific requirement sellers are not going to understand just from reading the current policy or your suggested policy revision.
I agree that proving this can be problematic. But if you read the entire thread, some actually read the policy to tell them the mere fact they ship to a Freight Forwarder voids the MBG, which it does not.
Ebay doesn't do "fine print" thank goodness. Way to easy to miss something important. They wouldn't be actually changing the policy, they would just be adding clarity to the existing policy.
@mam98031 wrote:
"You stated "A Freight Forwarder is not a "third party". I am not sure?" It doesn't really matter. The fact you ship the item to the FF does NOT void the MBG. When the FF ships the item to the Buyer, that action voids the MBG. The buyer might not use an FF, maybe they have it shipped to a friend or family member and then they reship it to the buyer. It is that act of shipping the item again that voids the MBG.
I don't think I implied that shipping to a FF voids the MBG.
I implied that sending a item by Restricted Delivery will require the item is only delivered to the addressee and is signed for by the addressee. No one else can accept the item. Unless the addressee is at the FF to sign for the item it will likely be returned to sender. I believe the MBG is void if item is undeliverable?
If a item is returned to sender because the addressee is unable to accept the item, then what does eBay say the obligation of the seller is? I am thinking the seller would be well protected.
If the buyer has arranged with the FF to accept all items on their behalf, to include Restricted Delivery and the FF was able to accept the item then I would think the MBG rule of Items collected by a third party on behalf of the buyer would apply.
IDK what you think you can gain, other than grief, by shipping it via this method. You would be doing it in Bad Faith because you are aware that the buyer is not their. So you are doing it to trick the system and hope Ebay will then considered it received when the carrier has to reject the item due to not being able to get the signature required. IMHO it would be simple for the buyer to get that overturned / appealed in Ebay simply because you shipped it with a requirement on the shipment that knowingly could not be achieved.
I think you are outsmarting yourself with this one. LOL
@elitecircuit wrote:From this thread, it's clear we've established ebay policy based on seller experience and community team member posts. It really only shows the posted policy is unclear at best. I'm merely suggesting a change that might actually fix the problem of what OP encountered and what others are misunderstanding. Too many posts on these forums of people saying "oh don't worry its a freight forwarder just ship it and you're responsibility ends at delivery". If it's 100$ or less you're probably fine but higher value is where risk becomes unacceptable for most.
Nearly all (99+%) of shipments to freight forwarders are indeed being re-shipped so we're all past the question of is an item really been re-shipped.
OK, I've already handled this. See my post #65.
