eBay

hs_tech · ‎10-09-2024

We recently had three item not as described cases opened on orders made by 0 feedback freight forwarder buyers sending orders to Chinese forwarding companies. The following ensued:

Buyer opens Item not as described case claiming scratches, doesn't perform etc.
Buyer returns an empty envelope or box
We escalate the case with Ebay FB team as they agreed freight forwarded orders aren't eligible for MBG.
Buyer successfully overturns each ruling with the reason "Seller agreed to provide refund but did not". Ebay FB team clarifies as long as return tracking provided on an ebay label is successfully returned then the buyer is entitled to a refund.
We ask for clarification on ebay MBG FAQ, where exclusions for MBG include "The buyer used third party freight forwarding or mail redirection." Ebay FB team clarifies this is only for if the buyer wants the item returned from the forwarded country i.e China.
We're left holding the bag on these orders when we could have issued 50% restocking fee. Either way buyer keeps his funds and the item.

Policy link here with screenshot below

Is this correct that MBG is still valid for forwarders as long as they use the Ebay provided return label? I'm surprised Ebay didn't include this note when mentioning on the exclusions list or reworded the excerpt above. We opened up forwarding orders after reviewing the FAQ but it looks like we're mistaken, and based on what I've seen other sellers recommend per this FAQ, many of you are also mistaken.

wastingtime101 · ‎10-09-2024

Anybody that frequents this Community knows all too well that eBay reps here have told us for at least 6 years there needs to be concrete proof the buyer had the package forwarded and a FF address combined with the buyer being registered in another country is not enough to void the buyer's protections.

They'll look at eBay messages from the buyer confirming the item went through a forwarder, they'll sometimes accept communication from the FF saying they received and forwarded the package. But eBay won't go on address alone.

In practice, many sellers here have confirmed that's how it's played out for them.

This topic came up at eBay Open recently where Trust & Safety, the team that sets these policies, was directly answering questions at their Expo booth. What T&S said at Open was in contradiction to the above.

I don't trust info they provided since it's not what we typically see and experience first hand, but I'll post the Q&A anyway.

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Seller A: When it come to Freight Forwarders, other sites like Amazon are black and white in policy but eBay remains overwhelmingly ambiguous. Other sites site explicitly state there is no buyer protection for a freight forwarding address. Why does eBay require the buyer to explicitly state they are forwarding the product to another country? When will eBay give sellers the ability to block buyers who are REGISTERED in countries I do not ship to?

eBay T&S: With freight forwarding, the buyer is responsible for any loss or damage after the item is delivered to the freight forwarder. It is the responsibility of the seller to successfully deliver the item to the address at checkout - which in this case, is the freight forwarder. Regarding blocking buyers via registration site - our processes and policies follow the transaction site (which site the buyer used to purchase the item) which is irrespective to the registration.

Seller A: Could you clarify, if a buyer has a google maps indicated freight forwarding address but has not admitted this in messages, is the purchase eligible for EMBG [eBay Money Back Guarantee] or not?

eBay T&S: The buyer would not be eligible for a refund in this situation.

Seller A: Thank you for your clear communication regarding third-party freight forwarders. I appreciate your clarification that buyers are not required to disclose their use of a third-party freight forwarder in M2M [member to member messages]. As you indicated, if a buyer has a third-party freight forwarding address, they are not eligible for EMBG. This distinction is crucial for our understanding and compliance.

eBay T&S: If the listing has the eMBG badge, the buyer is eligible to open up a case, but that does not mean they will receive a refund. The situation you provided, in accordance with our policy, would not grant the buyer a refund (as long as tracking confirms delivery to the address as checkout). If our case agents can confirm the address provided is a freight forwarding company, the buyer will not be eligible for a refund. If the buyer admits in messages that this is a freight forwarder, same outcome applies. They are not eligible for a refund.

Seller B: Following up on Seller A's freight forwarding question, this hasn't been my experience with eBay. As he says, unless a buyer explicitly admits the order was forwarded, l've routinely had eBay refuse to take action for freight forwarding. I've been told things like it could be an employee that works there and they don't know it was forwarded unless the buyer admits it, even thought the shipping address has something like "#919518791" in it which is clearly something for the freight forwarder.

eBay T&S: The use of freight forwarders as a means of shipping goods internationally is not against our polices as many legitimate buyers use freight forwarders as they provide a simple and reduced cost way to handle international shipping. When a buyer uses a freight forwarder, they do forfeit their eMBG protections. We have also seen fraud from buyers who use a freight forwarding address for sure and are working to hone in on fraudsters in general which will include freight forwarder risk checks. If you are dealing with a fraudulent buyer who has committed returns fraud or a false INR [item not received claim], please make sure you report the buyer as this does get reviewed by several risk models.

GLORIOUS!

View Best Answer in original post

robbie31415 · ‎10-09-2024

You would need a confession that it was forwarded.

Just because the address is to a FF, you aren't allowed to use logic to deduce that it was.

Your best bet is to always just do the 50% deduction.

But to answer your question. No the information you were not given isn't accurate.

If you have concrete evidence which is typically admission by the buyer they had it forwarded then the eBay MBG should be void.

However the address being a FF isn't evidence.

"The buyer used third party freight forwarding or mail redirection."

carlmarxx · ‎10-09-2024

Those ebay rep's where wrong buyers in China aren't covered if they use freight forward and third party shipping . problem is Ebay has newbie Employes's with less then 1 year + no buying or selling experiences lack training on the UA policy's

mam98031 · ‎10-09-2024

When a seller issues the return shipping label for a Request for Return, that label is issued for the address in which the order was shipped to per the Ebay order history.

So are you saying the actual FF used your label to ship you back an empty envelope?

We aren't mistaken about the policy. It does work as the CSR explained to you. If your buyer shipped the item back to you FROM China, the MBG protection for them would not apply. BUT in your case, if I understand you correctly, it was return from the USA address you shipped to. If that is correct, that is within the MBG and why it turned out the way it did for you.

The key that kicks in the buyer not being covered by the MBG is after the FF repackages the item and ships it to another address for the buyer. That action is what voids the MBG for the buyer. So are you sure the return package came directly from the FF and not the buyer?

Please do not get me wrong. I'm not defending the policy or how it applied to you. I'm simply explaining why what happened to you happened.

mam98031 • Volunteer Community Member • Buyer/Seller since 1999

mam98031 · ‎10-09-2024

@carlmarxx wrote:
Those ebay rep's where wrong buyers in China aren't covered if they use freight forward and third party shipping . problem is Ebay has newbie Employes's with less then 1 year + no buying or selling experiences lack training on the UA policy's

The sheer fact a buyer uses a FF does NOT make the MBG for them null and void. It is the action the FF takes to repackage and ship to another address. That is the part that voids the MBG. Sometimes that can be a difficult thing to prove for sellers.

This statement by the CSR is CORRECT. "Ebay FB team clarifies this is only for if the buyer wants the item returned from the forwarded country i.e China. "

mam98031 • Volunteer Community Member • Buyer/Seller since 1999

hs_tech · ‎10-09-2024

The buyer used the freight forwarder to return an empty envelope using a label we provided through the return process. Tracking originated in the same city and state as the forwarder but it could also be that buyer has someone living here sending back empty envelopes.

We originally worked with an ebay rep to close the return case in our favor by pulling Oregon state business registry, showing the address is registered as a freight forwarding company, and explaining the address with a code is to identify the package being forwarded. The rep quickly agreed and initially closed the case in our favor. We did this for all 3 cases except one, where we issued 50% because they shipped to a warehouse with multiple suites and the suite for the forwarder wasn't a match for the suite on the original order.

The ebay rep we just spoke with went through the case step by step, explained to us it doesn't matter if the item was re-shipped by a forwarder, possibly opened for repackaging, and whether the buyer even admitting this. All it matters was the item was returned on the label we issued from US origin.

hs_tech · ‎10-09-2024

I've tried to talk to a couple different reps but they just keep telling me once an appeal has been overturned there's no way to submit a second appeal. I was granted MBG on one of them by signing an affidavit that I received an empty box back but apparently that's only good for one courtesy refund a year. Basically, we're screwed on the other 2 even if you are right.

carlmarxx · ‎10-09-2024

Interesting change to the policy , Because ebay did remove all Buyer protection policy : MBG when Buyers used FF . Far as China was concerned the MBG was in play to direct shipping from seller to buyer international shipping . And seller/shipper was at buyer's mercy on how it was returned shipped since international county's have more shipping options .

robbie31415 · ‎10-09-2024

@mam98031 wrote:
@carlmarxx wrote:
Those ebay rep's where wrong buyers in China aren't covered if they use freight forward and third party shipping . problem is Ebay has newbie Employes's with less then 1 year + no buying or selling experiences lack training on the UA policy's
The sheer fact a buyer uses a FF does NOT make the MBG for them null and void. It is the action the FF takes to repackage and ship to another address. That is the part that voids the MBG. Sometimes that can be a difficult thing to prove for sellers.

This statement by the CSR is CORRECT. "Ebay FB team clarifies this is only for if the buyer wants the item returned from the forwarded country i.e China. "

I guess i understood incorrectly but I don't necessary agree.

Example if the China buyer wants to return from Doral, FL. After they have forwarded it back. Shouldn't use the word 'only'.

Policy should be understood as this.

If there is actual evidence (not the address type) testimony from the buyer that they had their packaged forwarded to different locations. Ebay MBG is void.

Simple.

carlmarxx · ‎10-09-2024

These Freight forward buyers their countries can be blocked keep them from biding buying .

bgt_masters_of_tiki_d · ‎10-09-2024

I just went through something similar last week. The buyer got the item and it was missing pieces. How I package this particular item it would have to arrive torn to shreds to be missing anything. I asked them maybe they replaced the small pieces since it had been 2+ weeks. They then mentioned they live in Canada use a freight forward. Had they not of said that I would been suck with an INAD case.

I get orders all the time that I have to send to these freight forwarders (usually in Florida) and I thought nothing of it until now.

mam98031 · ‎10-09-2024

@hs_tech wrote:
The buyer used the freight forwarder to return an empty envelope using a label we provided through the return process. Tracking originated in the same city and state as the forwarder but it could also be that buyer has someone living here sending back empty envelopes.

We originally worked with an ebay rep to close the return case in our favor by pulling Oregon state business registry, showing the address is registered as a freight forwarding company, and explaining the address with a code is to identify the package being forwarded. The rep quickly agreed and initially closed the case in our favor. We did this for all 3 cases except one, where we issued 50% because they shipped to a warehouse with multiple suites and the suite for the forwarder wasn't a match for the suite on the original order.

The ebay rep we just spoke with went through the case step by step, explained to us it doesn't matter if the item was re-shipped by a forwarder, possibly opened for repackaging, and whether the buyer even admitting this. All it matters was the item was returned on the label we issued from US origin.

I understood what you wrote originally. I don't necessarily disagree with you regarding the buyer may have a person working with them in the area to commit this scam.

Your last paragraph just explains what I said in my first post, just in a little different way.

You can do a couple of things and likely should.

File a complaint with USPS for Fraud that was committed against you using the US mail system perpetrate the fraud. This is a Federal Crime.

https://www.uspsoig.gov/

Report the buyer to Ebay. While this may not seem important, it really is. Ebay does track each and everyone one of these reports and it helps them to gather info on repeat offenders so they can take action.

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/resolving-buyer-issues/reporting-issue-buyer?id=4084

I've only had to do this a few times in the years I've been selling here. When I do this, I always email the buyer that I'm doing this and why. I stay polite and professional, but I'm clear that I am seeking all avenues available to report their shenanigans.

I'm aware that an international buyer presents some real barriers to trying to get these complaints processed, but in your case they are clearly using someone in the USA to assist them in the fraud.

mam98031 • Volunteer Community Member • Buyer/Seller since 1999

dbfolks166mt · ‎10-09-2024

Try contacting the FF company, provide them with your tracking information and ask them if they can provide the tracking information for the package when it was forwarded to the buyer in China, if in fact it was. Some of the FF's will assist with your request and some will not.

If you can get the information from the FF I would contact eBay again. Out of curiosity how quickly after the buyer filed the NAD and you provided the label did it take for the FF company to return the package to you?

mam98031 · ‎10-09-2024

@carlmarxx wrote:
Interesting change to the policy , Because ebay did remove all Buyer protection policy : MBG when Buyers used FF . Far as China was concerned the MBG was in play to direct shipping from seller to buyer international shipping . And seller/shipper was at buyer's mercy on how it was returned shipped since international county's have more shipping options .

Ebay's policy is the same. It hasn't changed in years.

Not covered:

The buyer used third-party freight forwarding or mail redirection

It is a mistake often made when reviewing this policy. For this coverage to kick in, the FF has to reship the item. The hard part can be for the seller is to prove it.

When a seller gets a Request for REturn on one of these types of cases, when the seller issues the return shipping label, it is ALWAYS for the address they originally shipped the item to, which is the FF in these cases. So if the buyer shipped the item back to the seller from a different country, that would be proof that the package was reshipped, seller should win the case and not have to refund the buyer.

The part here that makes it a SCAM is there is some unknown 3rd party working with the buyer [unlikely the FF knows anything about it]. The buyer gets the return label, sends it off to a third party here in the USA and have them ship back the empty package using the return shipping label. Because the item was shipped back using the return label issued by the seller, the MBG is still valid on this transaction.

I didn't write the rules, so don't get mad at me.

mam98031 • Volunteer Community Member • Buyer/Seller since 1999

mam98031 · ‎10-09-2024

@hs_tech

Something important I forgot to mention. Get the information form the original listing from your USPS records. Size and weight of the package being the important stuff.

Get that same information on the returned package from USPS. I bet they don't match. That is clear evidence of the Scam.

Also know that USPS takes pics at certain points through the packages travels. Get that too as it can help as well.

mam98031 • Volunteer Community Member • Buyer/Seller since 1999