Current policy on MBG with Freight Forwarders is misleading

[hs_tech]

We recently had three item not as described cases opened on orders made by 0 feedback freight forwarder buyers sending orders to Chinese forwarding companies. The following ensued:

1. Buyer opens Item not as described case claiming scratches, doesn't perform etc.
2. Buyer returns an empty envelope or box
3. We escalate the case with Ebay FB team as they agreed freight forwarded orders aren't eligible for MBG.
4. Buyer successfully overturns each ruling with the reason "Seller agreed to provide refund but did not". Ebay FB team clarifies as long as return tracking provided on an ebay label is successfully returned then the buyer is entitled to a refund.
5. We ask for clarification on ebay MBG FAQ, where exclusions for MBG include "The buyer used third party freight forwarding or mail redirection." Ebay FB team clarifies this is only for if the buyer wants the item returned from the forwarded country i.e China. 
6. We're left holding the bag on these orders when we could have issued 50% restocking fee. Either way buyer keeps his funds and the item. 

Policy link here with screenshot below

Is this correct that MBG is still valid for forwarders as long as they use the Ebay provided return label? I'm surprised Ebay didn't include this note when mentioning on the exclusions list or reworded the excerpt above. We opened up forwarding orders after reviewing the FAQ but it looks like we're mistaken, and based on what I've seen other sellers recommend per this FAQ, many of you are also mistaken. 

[wastingtime101 · Accepted solution]

Anybody that frequents this Community knows all too well that eBay reps here have told us for at least 6 years there needs to be concrete proof the buyer had the package forwarded and a FF address combined with the buyer being registered in another country is not enough to void the buyer's protections.

They'll look at eBay messages from the buyer confirming the item went through a forwarder, they'll sometimes accept communication from the FF saying they received and forwarded the package. But eBay won't go on address alone.

In practice, many sellers here have confirmed that's how it's played out for them.

This topic came up at eBay Open recently where Trust & Safety, the team that sets these policies, was directly answering questions at their Expo booth. What T&S said at Open was in contradiction to the above.

I don't trust info they provided since it's not what we typically see and experience first hand, but I'll post the Q&A anyway.

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Seller A: When it come to Freight Forwarders, other sites like Amazon are black and white in policy but eBay remains overwhelmingly ambiguous. Other sites site explicitly state there is no buyer protection for a freight forwarding address. Why does eBay require the buyer to explicitly state they are forwarding the product to another country? When will eBay give sellers the ability to block buyers who are REGISTERED in countries I do not ship to?

eBay T&S: With freight forwarding, the buyer is responsible for any loss or damage after the item is delivered to the freight forwarder. It is the responsibility of the seller to successfully deliver the item to the address at checkout - which in this case, is the freight forwarder. Regarding blocking buyers via registration site - our processes and policies follow the transaction site (which site the buyer used to purchase the item) which is irrespective to the registration.

Seller A: Could you clarify, if a buyer has a google maps indicated freight forwarding address but has not admitted this in messages, is the purchase eligible for EMBG [eBay Money Back Guarantee] or not?

eBay T&S: The buyer would not be eligible for a refund in this situation.

Seller A: Thank you for your clear communication regarding third-party freight forwarders. I appreciate your clarification that buyers are not required to disclose their use of a third-party freight forwarder in M2M [member to member messages]. As you indicated, if a buyer has a third-party freight forwarding address, they are not eligible for EMBG. This distinction is crucial for our understanding and compliance.

eBay T&S: If the listing has the eMBG badge, the buyer is eligible to open up a case, but that does not mean they will receive a refund. The situation you provided, in accordance with our policy, would not grant the buyer a refund (as long as tracking confirms delivery to the address as checkout). If our case agents can confirm the address provided is a freight forwarding company, the buyer will not be eligible for a refund. If the buyer admits in messages that this is a freight forwarder, same outcome applies. They are not eligible for a refund.

Seller B: Following up on Seller A's freight forwarding question, this hasn't been my experience with eBay. As he says, unless a buyer explicitly admits the order was forwarded, l've routinely had eBay refuse to take action for freight forwarding. I've been told things like it could be an employee that works there and they don't know it was forwarded unless the buyer admits it, even thought the shipping address has something like "#919518791" in it which is clearly something for the freight forwarder.

eBay T&S: The use of freight forwarders as a means of shipping goods internationally is not against our polices as many legitimate buyers use freight forwarders as they provide a simple and reduced cost way to handle international shipping. When a buyer uses a freight forwarder, they do forfeit their eMBG protections. We have also seen fraud from buyers who use a freight forwarding address for sure and are working to hone in on fraudsters in general which will include freight forwarder risk checks. If you are dealing with a fraudulent buyer who has committed returns fraud or a false INR [item not received claim], please make sure you report the buyer as this does get reviewed by several risk models.

[robbie31415]

Tbh it's more of a serious matter than i think people realize.

Asking to void the MBG is a big deal and eBay has to do risk assessment because there will be a good likelihood that it will be a chargeback and since the case would be decided in seller favor for voiding the MBG that means eBay is lm the hook to pay it due to chargeback protections.

In order for eBay to be willing to penalize a buyer by voiding their MBG the seller needs concrete evidence.

Best evidence is  buyer admitting they forwarded it via eBay messages.

[wastingtime101]

Agreed and that's what most of us have experienced.

Just thought I'd throw the Q&A out there because it shows a disconnect regarding how this policy is implemented.

[stephenmorgan]

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@robbie31415 wrote:

Best evidence is  buyer admitting they forwarded it via eBay messages.

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Anytime I am charged the 1.65% International I will message the buyer stating I see you are registered in Country xx but your item is being shipped to US address xx.  I will then ask if they are in the US to receive the item or is someone going to sent it to them in their registered country.  

I do not ask this question until after I have already mailed the item and it shows accepted by the delivery service.  I also provide them the tracking number.  I only ask to get them to admit that the item is being forwarded to them.  I have only had one buyer not answer, the buyer is registered in Ukraine.  

I am not looking for a reason to cancel the sale I just want to know that the item is being forwarded so I know when my responsibility ends.

I prefer to use eBays forwarding service, eBay International Shipping EIS.  I believe I have been fully intergraded into it now so I do not offer international shipping and let it default to EIS.  However if I get a order using a forwarding service other than EIS I am still pleased to process the sale.

[mam98031]

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@dolcetreasures wrote:

Something that is delivered, repackaged and sent to another address DOES make the entire transaction null and void, it’s supposed to. That’s the entire point of buyers who use reshippers not being covered. That’s supposed to be the risk that they take to circumvent their countries taxes on imports. 

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Yes it does, if you can prove it.  I have not said any differently in any post.  It isn't the act of shipping to a Freight Forwarder that voids the MBG for the buyer.  It is when the FF actually SHIPS it to the buyer.  That is the action that has to take place to void the MBG on that transaction.  The hard part of that is the SELLER has to prove it.

[carlmarxx]

I have delt  south Korean  buyer's   in the past that used freight  forwarding company  out Of Barstow Ca., and   at lest a couple buyers  in Spain  which used  a freight Forwarding  company in New York.  Here is the kicker I had gotten messages  from both company's confirming theses buyer purchase's and their customer  ID numbers  that had to be placed on the packages  and  printed out  ebay  purchase    sheet  which  with total cost    and the ID number written   on it  .   this  was  at  time   when the MBG was call Buyer Protection Policy  which  ebay  removed from Internation  buyers that used  FF    ,which  ebay  agreed to do in ,the class  action  law suit  filed  by  the seller's that  where defrauded by buyers that used FF  this  was  back in 2009-2010  .  there where threads  on this in the old power seller board.       

[carlmarxx]

I  remember  when  ebay   got hit  with a class action Lawsuit    over  Buyer 's  that used Freight  Forwarding company's to defraud Sellers  in 2009-2010  . In suit settlement ebay agreed to  Void    Buyer protection  policy  now  known as buyer  MBG  on international  buyers that used FF .      Ebay does  have history of  quietly changing updating policy's without telling their members  .   I have been on ebay since 1996  my other ID .  I have seen a lot  on this site .  And I agree with Mam . everyone has made great points here.

[ittybitnot]

eBay T&S: The use of freight forwarders as a means of shipping goods internationally is not against our polices as many legitimate buyers use freight forwarders as they provide a simple and reduced cost way to handle international shipping. When a buyer uses a freight forwarder, they do forfeit their eMBG protections. 

@wastingtime101 

Thank you for posting that.  While at one time eBay DID require some proof that the item was actually forwarded out of the country, they no longer do, so long as the seller knows how to proceed.   The use of a forwarding address seems to be enough, but it is up to the SELLER to be proactive.  

The idea that "proof for shipping out of the US" was required was proffered years ago by our old board blue 'Trinton' who said the buyer my actually live at that address, or was having the parcels held until they came to the US to collect them.  They ended up with more buyers who "lived" at those infamous Delaware addresses than they had standing room in those facilities. 

eBay is still treating these SNAD claims that ensue like any other sale.  It is up to the seller to get eBay involved and to point out that the buyer has voided their MBG protection.  THIS IS BEST ACCOMPLISHED by contacting eBay through one of the social media portals, in lieu of the outsourced call center reps or the AI driven appeal forms. 

https://www.facebook.com/eBay/

https://www.instagram.com/ebayforsellers/

https://x.com/askebay

It is also best for the seller to do this right away, BEFORE the timeline expires when they would be required to "accept a return and provide a label from the forwarder back to them".   A typical scenario at that point, should the buyer be trying to scam a free item, would be the "fake return scam" where they actually USE the label, and have someone in the US tweak the addresses and return the "proverbial brick" instead of the item sent.  Then the seller is faced with an additional issue.  Not only has the seller been scammed by the buyer, but they also must deal with the phony return made simply to satisfy the eBay bots that the parcel has been successfully returned. 

[robbie31415]

I would hate to be an employee working at a FF having my eBay packages shipped to my work.

So many sellers would be trying to void my ability to return.

[wastingtime101]

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@ittybitnot wrote:

While at one time eBay DID require some proof that the item was actually forwarded out of the country, they no longer do, so long as the seller knows how to proceed.   The use of a forwarding address seems to be enough, but it is up to the SELLER to be proactive.  

The idea that "proof for shipping out of the US" was required was proffered years ago by our old board blue 'Trinton' who said the buyer my actually live at that address, or was having the parcels held until they came to the US to collect them.  They ended up with more buyers who "lived" at those infamous Delaware addresses than they had standing room in those facilities. 

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Trinton was the one who first brought the "you need proof" to light because "they might work at the forwarder," but Brittanie in 2021 was saying the same. I know this was discussed in the Velvet/Jasmen days, but cannot remember the details and honestly don't feel like looking for those old posts.

I hope it's true @ittybitnot that eBay's standing behind the policy without requiring the seller jump through hoops trying to get the buyer to admit they had the package forwarded. We keep seeing reports to the contrary, but it could be the sellers are not getting CS involved soon enough? 🤷 I would have to go back and read more to see if that level of detail is available.

It's been a couple years since a FF buyer tried to scam me on a return (*knock wood*) so I don't have recent first hand experience putting the policy to the test. Most of my FF sales are uneventful with the occasional easily won INR or claim of non-receipt through messages.

[mam98031]

It is important to remember that the OP seems to be caught up in some kind of a triangular scam.  

International buyer purchases something and has it shipped to a FF.

FF ships item to the buyer in whatever country they are in.

The buyer notifies the seller there is a problem with the item and files an INAD.

Seller accepts the return and issues a return shipping label [which would for the FF address].

It appears there is another person involved that the buyer sends that label to here in the US and that person ships an empty package back to the seller using the return label they have received.

[ittybitnot]

 but it could be the sellers are not getting CS involved soon enough?

@wastingtime101 

From what I have read recently, it is from using the WRONG customer service options.  The outsourced call center reps are not helpful in this situation, especially if the seller is unaware, provides a return label, and gets back either a cheap trinket purchased elsewhere and sent to al alternate address, OR  the buyer has someone else in the US use the eBay label and  tinker with the addresses. Altering the eBay label PDF is a simple matter used quite often.   Whether or not the regular CS is only able to deny the victim is by design, cannot be determined.  The US social media agents seem to take care of the problem promptly, even AFTER a seller has unnecessarily accepted a SNAD return and provided the return label, and receives a faulty return or a box of paper clips sent to his/her local gas station instead of the laptop  sent to the 'buyer'. 

  

[hs_tech]

Appreciate everyone's replies here. We don't usually visit the community but because of the back and forth and wrong info provided by Ebay reps we have to rely on your guys experience for the most up to date policies being applied. It seems the best course of action for us is to re-enact our old policy of cancelling all forwarder orders. We don't have the capacity to msg and wait for each buyer to confirm they're using a forwarder - many buyers don't respond to our questions at all when something occurs. Sadly, we do have a vast majority of orders to forwarders being without issue but the overall loss rate remains too high for us to continue.

[yuzuha]

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@dolcetreasures wrote:

 That’s supposed to be the risk that they take to circumvent their countries taxes on imports. 

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Huh? Using a freight forwarder doesn't do that. I use one to import things from Japan and I have to pay any taxes due if the item's value is over the $800 limit.

[yuzuha]

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@hs_tech wrote:

Appreciate everyone's replies here. We don't usually visit the community but because of the back and forth and wrong info provided by Ebay reps we have to rely on your guys experience for the most up to date policies being applied. It seems the best course of action for us is to re-enact our old policy of cancelling all forwarder orders.

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This could get your account shut down if the buyers choose to report you for it as that is not considered a valid reason for canceling orders.