Buyer using USPS return scam - Ebay decided case in buyers favor

[austinsbestbuys]

I had a buyer who bought macbook air from me - after receiving they said its defective and asked for a return. I provided them the regular eBay USPS shipping label. Buyer supposedly returned the laptop and USPS delivered it in my very small mailbox (not possible). Upon further research, i noticed that the buyer had used a forwarding address of MEEST AMERICA. My hunch is that they overwrote the shipping address on the label and returned some empty small thing to a different address in my zip code. When i contacted buyer, there was no response ofcourse. 

I informed eBay and ofcourse they decided with the buyer. Filed an appeal to no avail and also got a defect on my account. Now, I am $929.99 in negative + a needless defect on my account. 

I wanted to ask experienced members here what are my options. Is that something i could sue eBay about since this is not the first time it happened to me?

[retro_entertainment_collectibles]

---

@gamersbaystore wrote:

I agree, some of these scammers are really bold. With some of them, its likely they're already convicted felons. Unfortunately, it can be very difficult, if not impossible for these people to ever find a job again, so they continue scamming to survive. Its a very sad and vicious cycle.

The average employer is not going to hire anyone convicted of a violent crime, and to a lesser degree, financial crimes, in which both would be considered serious risks to any given business.

This is part of the reason why ex-criminals have such a hard time re-integrating back into society, they are simply shunned by society. But we all make choices in life.

---

No doubt some are, no doubt most are not.  Most of this stuff is being perpetrated by folks in Gen-Z, over 60% according to Mastercard.  They are going to service their lifestyles.  They know its wrong and just dont care.  Its that simple and its not just here or Mamazon, its across all retailers as well.

But... It also is the Internet which can be tooth for tooth or even tooth for teeth for that matter.

[stephenmorgan]

---

@mam98031 wrote:

---

@sextons-sweet-deals wrote:

eBay could fix this if they really wanted to! 

From what I know, when a seller issues a return label, the seller will never see the tracking number so they can't track / watch where the package is or where it ends up.  

Because of that, it is an easy scammer play game. Manipulate the shipping address because eBay only goes by the tracking number and their auto bot system.

The other scam is the seller just receiving an empty box, the buyers broken item that they just replaced, box of rocks, or the seller may get their item back less the parts the buyer needed from it to either fix their item or complete the set of something. 

It's really sad!

I have some expensive items and some large items that just can't be shipped. I have pick-up only on them. It sure weeds out the scammers but can be hard to sale even if I do live in a very populated area. 

---

Usually the tracking number stays the same, so both the buyer and seller can track the package.

How exactly can Ebay control this issue?  How does Ebay control when someone drops a shipping label into a program and manipulate it?

I had this issue a couple of times, but as the buyer, it was the seller that shipped the item I paid for to someone else in my zip code.  They gave me the tracking number and put it on the transaction, but they didn't ship to me.  To make a long story short, they shipped a lighter & much cheaper item to an address in my zip code. 

When I contacted the carrier to see what the issue was as to why I did not receive my package, even though tracking said I did, that was when I found out that it wasn't shipped to me.  In looking closer at the shipping docs I also discovered that the item they shipped was 4lbs and what I ordered would have weighed closer to 40 or 50lbs.

I gather all the info from the carrier and they sent it to me in an email.  I filed an INR and attached the evidence I had collected.  I won the INR even though tracking showed delivered.

You want to blame Ebay for something they can't control, except for getting rid of members that participate in this scam.

---

Just curious, but after you proved your case have you gone back to see if the seller is still registered on eBay to do business?

[stephenmorgan]

The OP said "buyer had used a forwarding address of MEEST AMERICA"

Meest-America, a leading logistics company in the United States specializing in international parcel delivery.

I think in this case it the Return Label was not altered but some random item ordered from within the US and returned to a different address within the same Zip Code.  

It is very easy to alter a address on a shipping label and print it out for use and as long as it is on the same delivery route it may not be noticed, but you would need to be in the US to mail the item for this to work.

[a_c_green]

---

@mam98031 wrote:
Usually the tracking number stays the same, so both the buyer and seller can track the package. How exactly can Ebay control this issue?  How does Ebay control when someone drops a shipping label into a program and manipulate it?

In fact that particular question has a relatively simple fix. The generated label is in PDF form. At the present time, the labels generated by eBay are not produced with any Security settings to prevent modifying the document, so that anyone with a PDF editor can modify the visible address as desired: 

Document Properties as seen in Acrobat Reader (press Ctrl+D)

The solution is for eBay to add an Owner password when generating the address. That does not prevent the recipient from opening or printing the label as needed, but it does prevent the user from modifying either the Security settings or the address in the document itself. (Adding an owner password encrypts the file contents, so you can no longer just go into it with a text editor, find the visible text strings and modify the address line.) I had a stab at explaining this to a couple of eBay folks at the Chicago live event last year, but I'm not sure if they understood it.

At that point, with an Owner password in place, if the scammer wants to modify the label, he'll have to do it physically in a more obvious manner, such as by pasting a new address over the original, or otherwise generate a whole new label of his own, such as to send a trinket to some other address within the recipient's ZIP Code. That hacked-up label will be much easier to spot. As it is right now, modifying the PDF label instead can be seamless if you know what you're doing and there is no Owner password to prevent you from fiddling with it.

As for a scam return swap going through a reshipper (Freight Forwarder) from a foreign country, I don't see any additional hurdle that would prevent that. The return label goes to the scam buyer, and he needs only to modify the label with a misdirected street address, stick it on his package and send it back to his reshipper in the U.S. They then drop the package into the mailstream bearing its fake destination address, and eBay generates the refund as soon as tracking shows a Delivered status somewhere within the recipient's ZIP Code.

The solution in this case would involve the victimized seller either proving to eBay that the original Ship-To: address was a Freight Forwarder, or proving (with USPS help) that the returned package was actually labeled to go to some other address in the recipient's ZIP. Long-term, eBay needs to secure the PDF labels that they generate with an Owner password in order to encrypt the contents and make modifying them more difficult.

[ittybitnot]

Ok, SO international shipment/returns scams—not a thing you can do?

@vintagecraze50 

As far as getting any monetary redress for being a victim of a scam, likely not  a chance through regular law enforcement channels in the US.   There are no published policies or procedures for this on the eBay site.   It has been going on for YEARS, and has been documented in these forums at least back to 2013.    

The only reason members know here what can be tried is by sharing information with each other.  While buyer victims can be helped by doing a credit card chargeback, seller victims have to rely on the "good graces" of eBay. The entity that controls the money, controls the outcome, and indeed it is not the seller in this case.  For much too long it appears eBay's first line is to DENY, DENY, and hide behind "the tracking shows delivery" "tracking shows you received the package from the buyer" etc. etc. in hopes you DON'T know where to turn and you give up and go away.  

I provided the OP @austinsbestbuys  in message #11 what needs to be done at this point to the best of my knowledge.  This is based on others that have had this problem, and the present state of 'help' available if you know where to go.  

Even then,  eBay often requires written documentation that has been often impossible to obtain in the format required. Thus, eBay is not required to perform and saves money.   Their interpretation of a freight forwarder situation/loss of the money back guarantee has wavered of the years as well.  Presently sometimes, just  that  forwarder information is enough for the seller victim, and no further documentation is required.  Luckily for many, the local USPS has been much more cooperative in helping victims.  They often give you a photo of the label that was NOT addressed to you to help with your case be you a seller or a buyer.  It has only been the last few months that we actually got to view some of these that actually still retained the same tracking number/bar code yet were addressed to the local gas station to satisfy a return to the seller.   Yes, as you said it is a Federal Crime, but the perpetrator is in "Somewhereistan". 

[ittybitnot]

The return label goes to the scam buyer, and he needs only to modify the label with a misdirected street address, stick it on his package and send it back to his reshipper in the U.S.

@a_c_green 

That would be too expensive....sending it back to the reshipper.   Many of these that I have seen have had "return" addresses that are totally unrelated to the reshipper address. Some retained the reshipper address as the 'return' address, but the tracking shows them dropped off in another state.  Four out of the last five I have seen have seemingly random return addresses in NY, even when the reshipper was in Miami or Oregon.  

So if I were the miscreant buyer in 'somewhereistan', I would just forward the label to my good friend a.c. in the US who knows how to change the label, and have them send the box of rubber bands to the recipient's local CVS.  I suspect someone in the US has a really nifty 'cottage industry' going on.  

[gamersbaystore]

Bingo! That's what I was trying to tell the OP all along. The buyer never altered the label, they merely purchased a new one and sent a random item somewhere in the OP's zipcode.

The OP claimed they thought the buyer overwrote the shipping address on the label, but we know that's not possible because of the third party shipping service that was involved. Altering the address on a USPS label does not alter its destination assigned to the barcode.

The buyer in the OP's case could not have used a forwarding service for the return unless they used a different label than the one ebay provided for the return. In such a case, it would be simple for the buyer to use alternate addresses.

Yes, if its an altered address along the very same route, its possible a postal worker may not notice it, but the seasoned ones will.

My own mailman was quick to point out the discrepancies in the return I mentioned and was the one to initially report it.

[mam98031]

---

@vintagecraze50 wrote:

You know what really sparks my attention on these is that these buyers/thieves are taking incredible risks doing this kind of thing. For goodness sakes, you have their name, address, phone number etc, and they blatantly commit theft and fraud which can be ABSOLUTELY ,AND NO EXCUSES, VERIFIED with an altered label and sent to a different return address. All for a used MacBook. Just Dumb to the max.

---

Dare we add that what they are doing is a FEDERAL crime !!!!!

[mam98031]

---

@ittybitnot wrote:

LABEL ALTERED EQUALS MAIL FRAUD IN THE FIRST DEGREE. Not only do you have the opportunity to report this buyer to the federal govt for fraud and Prison time.........

@vintagecraze50 

I  do think in this instance the "buyer" is in another country (used a freight forwarder), and probably not particularly interested or living in fear of  any 'mail fraud' prosecution from US federal government entities. 

---

What info lead you to that conclusion?  

[mam98031]

Sadly they are.

[mam98031]

When a buyer uses a Freight Forwarding company to receive their purchases in the US to at some point repackage and ship to their country, as far as the seller is concerned, the ship to address is the Freight Forwarder.  Therefore if a Request for Return is filed by the buyer and the seller approves it and sends a return label to the buyer, the address it ships from is the Freight Forwarder address and a US shipping rate.

Sellers do not have to pay for a return from the buyer's international address when the buyer uses a Freight forwarder.

[ittybitnot]

What info lead you to that conclusion? 

@mam98031 

Actually, it was in the first post by the OP: 

 Upon further research, i noticed that the buyer had used a forwarding address of MEEST AMERICA.

[mam98031]

---

@ittybitnot wrote:

What info lead you to that conclusion? 

@mam98031 

Actually, it was in the first post by the OP: 

 Upon further research, i noticed that the buyer had used a forwarding address of MEEST AMERICA.

---

You are correct.  I'm sorry!

[cottontreeco]

I am running into same problem. Buyer bought a $1000 item from me. Requested return by saying changing mind. Buyer is able to upload a tracking number that showed delivered to me. But I never saw the mail carrier or the package. I went to nearby USPS warehouse, was able to pull up the image of the actual label. Item was delivered to a nearby bank. I went to the bank and they said they received and discarded an empty envelope.

Now I am at the deadline of responding to eBay's return request. I have not been able to obtain any written documentation because no one wanted to come forward to make a case for me. USPS will take another 2 days to respond. Appreciate those who have dealt with this any suggestion to move forward.

[mam98031]

---

@cottontreeco wrote:

I am running into same problem. Buyer bought a $1000 item from me. Requested return by saying changing mind. Buyer is able to upload a tracking number that showed delivered to me. But I never saw the mail carrier or the package. I went to nearby USPS warehouse, was able to pull up the image of the actual label. Item was delivered to a nearby bank. I went to the bank and they said they received and discarded an empty envelope.

Now I am at the deadline of responding to eBay's return request. I have not been able to obtain any written documentation because no one wanted to come forward to make a case for me. USPS will take another 2 days to respond. Appreciate those who have dealt with this any suggestion to move forward.

---

Have you tried going to your local PO and get a print out from them.  They should be able to see the info and the pics too.  I also encourage you to contact Ebay so they can make a note on your file too.

Oh and you might try sending an email to your buyer from inside the claim.  Very polite, professional and not pointing fingers.  Let them know that USPS has notified you that the package sent using that tracking number was an envelop deliver to a Bank in your area.  You went to retrieve the envelop and were told it was not address to you and it was empty.  You are in contact with USPS to get all the documentation on the shipment and will update them and Ebay of the problem at hand.

You may not want to do that email to your buyer and that is understandable.  It is just me and my feeling towards thieves, bullies and liars.  I have no toleration for those three types of human beings.

On each Ebay page there is a link to contact Customer Service at the top of the page and again at the bottom of the page.

I would suggest that you contact Ebay for Business on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter for the better trained CSRs.

Here are your options for contacting Ebay Customer Service. Please be aware that for social media CS, you send them a Private Message and briefly explain what your problem or issue is. Feel free to leave your Name, address, phone number and/or your email address in this message. It is private and secure and it may help to speed up the response for you.

https://twitter.com/askebay

https://www.facebook.com/eBay/

https://www.instagram.com/ebayforsellers/

Your options will be on the left. If you use the link below you can only get to the Automated Assistant or Chat box type AGENT in the box and hit enter. You will then get more options. Not all options are available 24/7. It will depend on staffing available. So sometimes you can request a call back and sometimes you can't. Sometimes you have the Chat option available and other times it won't me. If it is important to you to use one of those options, just try back later.

If you use a cell phone or other mobile device, you may need to turn off your Spam filter so that Ebay can call you.

If you are a seller outside of the US or Canada, you will need to use the Chat Option.

https://www.ebay.com/help/eua?id=5275&mkevt=1&mkpid

https://www.ebay.com/help/home