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Another stellar experience with returns, no money and no item back

So, I sold a small tablet and buyer received it with no issues. 

I shipped it Priority Flat Rate

Few days later they opened a returned, said they didn't want it any more. 

Return was approved automatically, and eBay provided a return label. 

I thought nothing of it, and was just going to relist it when it was returned. 

Return never made it back to me, USPS sent it back to sender as the weight was over the 1st class label Ebay provided. I told the buyer to ship it to me at their expense.

They did not, escalated to costumer service, and got a quick refund before I could even call Ebay

I'm out the money,  the item and shipping fees for 2 shipments.

The so called 'seller protections' are imaginary.

 

 

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Re: Another stellar experience with returns, no money and no item back

Read this reply and forget the rest. This is what I have done in the past and worked every time. Contact the buyer and provide them the steps that you will be taking - step by step with dates. Firstly let them know they have committed mail fraud and that you will be contacting the Postal Inspectors on such a date - give them 2 days to provide you with a tracking number for the return. Then provide them with what will happen on day 3. You will contact Postal Inspectors and they should be knocking on their door in a few days. Also, let them know you will be filing a theft report with your police department and theirs.  Look theirs up and provide the address and phone number for further proof. Then file. My local police department generated a letter explaining they had so many days to return the stolen merchandise or else.  They sent it certified. Be short and precise with your actions with them. Mean business.  Most people don't believe you will go to any extent such as this, believe me. Ha !  I do and they are shocked. Follow through. Do not give them a date and action and NOT follow through. I have gotten my merchandise back every time. It's a poker game. Don't bluff. They will fold.

Message 46 of 56
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Re: Another stellar experience with returns, no money and no item back

I've to date not been able to find USPS documentation that clearly indicates the 70lb limit, but there is the eBay label example fa_8305 presents that indicates eBay says 70lb is ok, eBay has been issuing First Class Package Return Service labels for years that got used for over a pound with very few issues except an occasional USPS clerk doing the same thing that happened here, and it is very possible that eBay has an NSA (negotiated service agreement) that permits it.


I will try to ask Nate again (he went silent last December) for clarification: @ship_like_a_pro@ebay
(and trinton@ebay for good measure if Nate is otherwise not available)

Does eBay have an NSA or an unpublished version of First Class Return Service that allows the use of First Class Package Return Service labels for anything up to 70 pounds?

It would really help to know what the true situation is (and preferably see documentation too)
Message 47 of 56
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Re: Another stellar experience with returns, no money and no item back


@berserkerplanet wrote:
I've to date not been able to find USPS documentation that clearly indicates the 70lb limit, but there is the eBay label example fa_8305 presents that indicates eBay says 70lb is ok, eBay has been issuing First Class Package Return Service labels for years that got used for over a pound with very few issues except an occasional USPS clerk doing the same thing that happened here, and it is very possible that eBay has an NSA (negotiated service agreement) that permits it.


I will try to ask Nate again (he went silent last December) for clarification: @ship_like_a_pro@ebay
(and trinton@ebay for good measure if Nate is otherwise not available)

Does eBay have an NSA or an unpublished version of First Class Return Service that allows the use of First Class Package Return Service labels for anything up to 70 pounds?

It would really help to know what the true situation is (and preferably see documentation too)

@berserkerplanet 

Thanks for the note. USPS returns service is supposed to only have postage charged to the account/permit holder (eBay). We dispense return labels via eBay.com returns flows at the weight/dims we gather from the item in a various ways (sometimes over or underestimated by our logic), and then charge the seller/buyer when that label is detected as used. We also settle up with USPS for each item individually based on the actual weight and dimensions of the item captured by USPS.  

USPS documentation for this type of service use is here: 

https://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/505.htm#ep1225056

This section is the pertinent one...as the 'Customer' referred to is 'eBay', in this case: 

3.6.4 Postage[1-27-19] Postage is calculated based on the weight of the parcel and zone. Customers must pay postage under a scan based payment program (604.12.0) and using an eVS/CAPS account.

 

~Nate

Message 48 of 56
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Re: Another stellar experience with returns, no money and no item back

Thanks for the reply and info Nate. @ship_like_a_pro 


One final clarification so that we can understand, and have reasoned arguments to better deal with USPS clerks who might refuse First Class Package Return Service (FCPRS) labels over 1lb (or even 13oz):


eBay then is using Merchandise Return Service, issues specific return service labels (First Class Pkg Return Service, Priority Mail Return Service based on listing original weight or shipping service used) under that Merchandise Return Service umbrella, and then is billed accordingly for services rendered by USPS?

 

ie: When a buyer is issued a First Class Package Return Service label and uses it to ship a 10lb item back, eBay would be billed for a 10 lb Priority Mail Return Service shipment? (in other words, it isn't that eBay has some special agreement to use FCPRS labels for over 16oz, but that the Merchandise Return Service product allows for that shipment to be billed as a PMRS shipment?)

 

USPS_2015_usps-package-returns-comparison-checklist-pdf_excerpt_900x436_hilighted.gif

 

Mostly trying to figure out what the real weight and size limits for First Class Package Return Service are.

 

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Re: Another stellar experience with returns, no money and no item back


brian@ebay wrote:


Hi @hubsnyc , based on the information you've provided in this thread, I am not able to overturn this decision. You told the buyer, "to ship it to me at their expense." Sellers are responsible for return shipping costs when a buyer opens a Not As Described return. While definitely frustrating, if the package is returned to the buyer because the shipping carrier makes a mistake or the return shipping is insufficient then the seller would need to rearrange and pay for return shipping for the buyer. 

 

In regard to the problem with the return label, the return flow will use an eBay label for domestic returns by default. While the experience you've described in this thread is definitely uncommon, you do have the option of providing buyers a return label yourself if you find the default return shipping method and/or carrier isn't meeting your needs. If a seller prefers to use another shipping method or shipping carrier, they can set up the RMA feature in their returns settings


Hi brian@ebay. If an eBay return label is used and USPS incorrectly sends a package back to the buyer because a clerk didn't understand the return service guidelines... as in the OP's case... but the seller chooses to issue a 2nd prepaid label to the buyer so they can re-ship, would a seller have grounds to appeal to eBay for a credit of the 1st eBay-generated return label?

Message 50 of 56
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Re: Another stellar experience with returns, no money and no item back


@fa_8305 wrote:

@remote_controls_and_more wrote:

Also all my returns always have a first class return service label on them no matter the weight and packaging of the return.


eBay label USPS First-Class Package Return Service up to 70 lbs.jpg

The last line at the bottom ^^ of the eBay-issued USPS First-Class Package Return Service label page states 70 pounds.


Its interesting... when I looked at the USPS site... they have a First Class return Service and also a Priority Mail Return Service. First class says up to 15.99 lbs and Priority Mail up to 70 lbs. It kinda looks like the system is generating the wrong label unless eBay has a deal with USPS to use 1st class rates for all packages up to 70 lbs. 

Message 51 of 56
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Re: Another stellar experience with returns, no money and no item back


@berserkerplanet wrote:

Thanks for the reply and info Nate. @ship_like_a_pro 


One final clarification so that we can understand, and have reasoned arguments to better deal with USPS clerks who might refuse First Class Package Return Service (FCPRS) labels over 1lb (or even 13oz):


eBay then is using Merchandise Return Service, issues specific return service labels (First Class Pkg Return Service, Priority Mail Return Service based on listing original weight or shipping service used) under that Merchandise Return Service umbrella, and then is billed accordingly for services rendered by USPS?

 

ie: When a buyer is issued a First Class Package Return Service label and uses it to ship a 10lb item back, eBay would be billed for a 10 lb Priority Mail Return Service shipment? (in other words, it isn't that eBay has some special agreement to use FCPRS labels for over 16oz, but that the Merchandise Return Service product allows for that shipment to be billed as a PMRS shipment?)

 

USPS_2015_usps-package-returns-comparison-checklist-pdf_excerpt_900x436_hilighted.gif

 

Mostly trying to figure out what the real weight and size limits for First Class Package Return Service are.

 


I'm not even sure why USPS offers a first class package service as a different allegedly slower service. I've sent hundreds of packages USPS First Class Package Service and they got there in the same amount of time as Priority Mail, probably because they're being shipped on the same trucks/planes. I wonder if others have tracked their delivery times and had a similar experience?

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Re: Another stellar experience with returns, no money and no item back


@beardedbovine wrote:

brian@ebay wrote:


Hi @hubsnyc , based on the information you've provided in this thread, I am not able to overturn this decision. You told the buyer, "to ship it to me at their expense." Sellers are responsible for return shipping costs when a buyer opens a Not As Described return. While definitely frustrating, if the package is returned to the buyer because the shipping carrier makes a mistake or the return shipping is insufficient then the seller would need to rearrange and pay for return shipping for the buyer. 

 

In regard to the problem with the return label, the return flow will use an eBay label for domestic returns by default. While the experience you've described in this thread is definitely uncommon, you do have the option of providing buyers a return label yourself if you find the default return shipping method and/or carrier isn't meeting your needs. If a seller prefers to use another shipping method or shipping carrier, they can set up the RMA feature in their returns settings


Hi brian@ebay. If an eBay return label is used and USPS incorrectly sends a package back to the buyer because a clerk didn't understand the return service guidelines... as in the OP's case... but the seller chooses to issue a 2nd prepaid label to the buyer so they can re-ship, would a seller have grounds to appeal to eBay for a credit of the 1st eBay-generated return label?


Hi @beardedbovine, I'm happy to clarify! A refund wouldn't be issued in situations where a shipping carrier makes a mistake, even if the seller pays for a second return label. This is also true for return labels printed through the return flow on eBay. 

Brian,
Community Team
Message 53 of 56
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Re: Another stellar experience with returns, no money and no item back


brian@ebay wrote:

@beardedbovine wrote:

brian@ebay wrote:


Hi @hubsnyc , based on the information you've provided in this thread, I am not able to overturn this decision. You told the buyer, "to ship it to me at their expense." Sellers are responsible for return shipping costs when a buyer opens a Not As Described return. While definitely frustrating, if the package is returned to the buyer because the shipping carrier makes a mistake or the return shipping is insufficient then the seller would need to rearrange and pay for return shipping for the buyer. 

 

In regard to the problem with the return label, the return flow will use an eBay label for domestic returns by default. While the experience you've described in this thread is definitely uncommon, you do have the option of providing buyers a return label yourself if you find the default return shipping method and/or carrier isn't meeting your needs. If a seller prefers to use another shipping method or shipping carrier, they can set up the RMA feature in their returns settings


Hi brian@ebay. If an eBay return label is used and USPS incorrectly sends a package back to the buyer because a clerk didn't understand the return service guidelines... as in the OP's case... but the seller chooses to issue a 2nd prepaid label to the buyer so they can re-ship, would a seller have grounds to appeal to eBay for a credit of the 1st eBay-generated return label?


Hi @beardedbovine, I'm happy to clarify! A refund wouldn't be issued in situations where a shipping carrier makes a mistake, even if the seller pays for a second return label. This is also true for return labels printed through the return flow on eBay. 


What is the seller's incentive to continue using eBay labels if eBay is unwilling to assist the seller when a mistake is made by USPS? Since eBay is the shipper of record, the seller has no power to take the case up with USPS and receive a refund. Since seller paid eBay for the label, then it seems that eBay should be "making it right" in this instance and taking up the discrepancy with the USPS on behalf of the seller.

 

If I had my own USPS account, I could submit a claim with USPS and seek a refund of my shipping costs.

 

This is a critical issue, because market pricing is so depressed here on many items that a second return label alone can be the difference between breaking even and losing money. 

 

Should sellers be responsible for return shipping costs when the buyer falsely claims SNAD? Will eBay reimburse those costs on a won appeal? On both labels?

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Re: Another stellar experience with returns, no money and no item back


@innovatilife wrote:

 

I learned that if you choose any kind of economy or standard shipping in your shipping service for your item, eBay will always generate a USPS First Class return label for returns, regardless of what actual service was used.

 


The other day my son had a big A return he asked me to package 'cause I'm such a pro 😉

The return label was first class, but the item came to him priority.

I protested! This will never fly!

He took it to the window and it sailed through, even though he mentioned my concerns. Go figure.

Message 55 of 56
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Re: Another stellar experience with returns, no money and no item back


@greatmidwestcoin wrote:

Read this reply and forget the rest. This is what I have done in the past and worked every time. Contact the buyer and provide them the steps that you will be taking - step by step with dates. Firstly let them know they have committed mail fraud and that you will be contacting the Postal Inspectors on such a date - give them 2 days to provide you with a tracking number for the return. Then provide them with what will happen on day 3. You will contact Postal Inspectors and they should be knocking on their door in a few days. Also, let them know you will be filing a theft report with your police department and theirs.  Look theirs up and provide the address and phone number for further proof. Then file. My local police department generated a letter explaining they had so many days to return the stolen merchandise or else.  They sent it certified. Be short and precise with your actions with them. Mean business.  Most people don't believe you will go to any extent such as this, believe me. Ha !  I do and they are shocked. Follow through. Do not give them a date and action and NOT follow through. I have gotten my merchandise back every time. It's a poker game. Don't bluff. They will fold.


It has been a looong while since I  have posted this, but since you mentioned contacting local police and other agencies, your post brought this to mind. Hop it helps someone... 

 

What to do? How to do it?

 

The FBI's Internet Crime Center, and the other person’s local police and or Magistrate would be a good place perhaps to start. You can also take advantage of social media and ask if anyone else has shared your experience - make a Twitter comment or use Facebook (bad PR will do wonders to get things fixed sometimes). In extreme cases, even filing a civil suit (Judge Judy? LOL) could get their attention? (if it is worth it to you).  But as far as the seller and this transaction goes - I'm afraid it's likely a moot point to go that far.

 

<Keep in mind that it has been a while since I’ve personally had to use these links, so they may be outdated, but if you look them up, they should be easily found. And might serve your purpose…>

 

(Note that this link is good for anyone who needs a local phone number in another town - one can't dial 911 in WV and get someone in SD to answer -- – for instance your kids gets in trouble away from home, or you need to check on an elderly parent who suddenly does not answer the phone, etc.)

Other information...

 

And I’m sure there are other avenues you may find too, just look.

 

I wish you well.

I am a founding member of the eBay Community Expert Group: a USA volunteer mentor with over a decade of experience. I am not an eBay employee.

Live simply. Care deeply. Love generously. Speak kindly. Laugh loudly. Act responsibly. Rejoice daily. Help cheerfully. Plan carefully. Criticize sparingly. Invest wisely. Forgive willingly. Shop seriously. Play fairly. Learn graciously.
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