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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...

The metrics will show you:

  • How often you receive return requests for "items not as described."

 

Greetings.  I am a long time seller of t-shirts and coffee cups.   In 2012, based on negative consequences of the DSR system back then, and having tried everything in the book, I finally came to the conclusion that walking away was the only logical answer.  I did.  Publically.  The problems then were the same as today, it centered around dissatified customers.  I still sold on ebay (didn't close my store) but I went close to year without lifting one single finger to grow my eBay business, instead I worked passionately on an exit plan.  BUT... in mid 2013 Ebay introduced "managed returns"... Intrigued, I believed that that just might be the fix I was looking for.  I opted in and noticed a remarkable difference.  Buyers were still lying to get a free return so I decided if this was all over the cost of a return I'd work that into my selling equasion... so on 1/1/14 I came back to ebay with all my heart and went with a free return model.  It worked wonders!  Better than I could even imagine.  I haven't looked back.   

 

However, buyers are still giving fraudulent reasons for wanting the return.  things like "missing parts" (on hats, mugs and t-shirts) and all kinds of other dumb reasons.  I have never cared.  I have never reported them.  If they want a return they get it! Period.    My biggest probelm was in the realm of coffee mugs.  I didn't want to bring to the market the same things everyone else was doing and I found a supplier back in 2012 for a great quality plastic coffee mug.  While my local hallmark store was selling it no one on eBay was... so I jumped in!  About 5% of my buyers bought by looking at the picture only and expected a ceramic coffee mug regardless of the description.  I worked with Laura Chambers and her team and applied all their ideas with no results.  A certain segment of people were shopping picture only, not even reading the title, let alone the description and then complaining and returning the mugs as "SNAD".  I've handled this just by rolling my eyes and giving out the returns.   Finally on 1/1/2018 i made the decision to attempt to fix this by offering choice listings and bringing in ceramic mugs to handle the 5% who can't read.  Now they have to select which one they want.  So far, I've had no returns this year, but I'm not entirely through this process yet.  

 

My concern that I want your team to strongly consider is rather or not you're putting too much "faith" in the word of the buyer and the responsibilty of the seller to overcome niave buying.   My guess is that you now want us to report every buyer who gives a reason for a return that is clearly fraudualent.  But I'm uneasy with that because I wanted eBay to move away from a "buyer verses seller, fight to death" world.    Devin Wenig had hooked me up with Dieter Newlin back in 2014 and we had indepth discussions about this very thing.  I'm thinking the closer we can get to a world where "right and wrong" doesn't matter as much as just taking care of the customer does the better off eBay will be.  Now, I know we can't all get there, there are MANY models that can't embrace a "free return" world, but for those of us that can... shouldn't just taking care of our customers be the main thing?   This is especially true in clothing.  There is no greater way to overcome the touch and feel weakness of online shopping than standing behind our items with a free return that is mediated by eBay and guaranteed to them.  Words and pictures can't over come this... trust me I've tried since 2003.  We just can't always fix stupid, and we're always going to face a segment of the population that is educated on the 5th grade level scale or under and they just aren't all Harvard graduates with highest IQ's. My concern is that internal eBay is surrounded by smart people that don't reflect the real world, LOL.   Rather than pitting buyer against seller, placing enimity between buyer and seller, can't we just move as close as we each can to a "free return" model and then stand behind those who offer it, knowing that if our returns are out of whack, the free market system will take us under if we don't climb on top of it ourselves? Then simply limiting returns of those who abuse the priveledge if necassary... without getting sellers involved.   

 

To be clear, I'm not outright condemning this move, but I'm just concerned that it's, IMO, a step in the wrong direction especially for those embracing the free return model.   I get returns all the time because a medium shirt doesn't fit and therefore is SNAD.  I get them on hats that are "missing parts and pieces" ???? Really ????.  I've gotten them on my own unique shirt sold exclusively on eBay because it "is not like the Irish shirt I bought at the mall last month" ??? Figure that one out!    In the end does it matter?  No... the customer want's a return and they don't even have to ask me for that... it's pre-approved and guaranteed to them by eBay!  (AWESOME BTW!) A Free return is the least I can offer them on a purchase that they can't touch and feel before buying and can't try on and look at themselves in the mirror before paying.  Let's make that the WINNING HAND!  Because really, IT IS!

 

I don't mean this in a critcal manner... just ponder it internally and maybe hire a few high school drop outs to hang around you so you can learn how a sub-set of people think that will provide you smart people with quality entertainment and help you rethink some of this. 🙂   Or... go to your nearest walmart and watch people  enter it through the exit doors all day long!  Back in my day we didn't have motion detectors... we had mats you stepped on and the doors were one way doors with ENTER and EXIT... and if I had a dollar for each idiot I saw hit the glass in the 80's I'd be almost as rich as Mr. Wenig.  LOL...     Is the reason for the free return really that important????   I think not.  it's more entertaining than educational.  Think about it.  

 

Danny

 photo HONEVILLELOGO-1.jpg

Message 1 of 34
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...

I get your point that some people regardless if it is a free return may choose not as described or any other reason for the return. Whether true or not. Yes, there is less resisitance, problems with buyers making up excuses for why they want to return it and better customer service when returns are free.  Still, if there is something wrong with the item the buyer should be able to indicate that as a choice for a return. If this were not so, then a lot of sellers would possibly use this free return thing to their advantage and sell inferior, defective etc product. Yes, there would be no hassle for the buyer sending it back if it;s free, but you do not want to be selling bad product and have people sending a  lot of stuff back. That's bad business practice for seller and Ebay. Yes, some folks will hit a not as described even if it was as described, by mistake perhaps, perhaps lack of nowledge of the product. Let's hope these will be so minimal that there is no real issue to deal with. Communicate with the buyer if they have chosen the wrong reason for the return, that is the solution if these come up.

Message 2 of 34
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...


@honeville1 wrote:

The metrics will show you:

  • How often you receive return requests for "items not as described."

 

Greetings.  I am a long time seller of t-shirts and coffee cups.   In 2012, based on negative consequences of the DSR system back then, and having tried everything in the book, I finally came to the conclusion that walking away was the only logical answer.  I did.  Publically.  The problems then were the same as today, it centered around dissatified customers.  I still sold on ebay (didn't close my store) but I went close to year without lifting one single finger to grow my eBay business, instead I worked passionately on an exit plan.  BUT... in mid 2013 Ebay introduced "managed returns"... Intrigued, I believed that that just might be the fix I was looking for.  I opted in and noticed a remarkable difference.  Buyers were still lying to get a free return so I decided if this was all over the cost of a return I'd work that into my selling equasion... so on 1/1/14 I came back to ebay with all my heart and went with a free return model.  It worked wonders!  Better than I could even imagine.  I haven't looked back.   

 

However, buyers are still giving fraudulent reasons for wanting the return.  things like "missing parts" (on hats, mugs and t-shirts) and all kinds of other dumb reasons.  I have never cared.  I have never reported them.  If they want a return they get it! Period.    My biggest probelm was in the realm of coffee mugs.  I didn't want to bring to the market the same things everyone else was doing and I found a supplier back in 2012 for a great quality plastic coffee mug.  While my local hallmark store was selling it no one on eBay was... so I jumped in!  About 5% of my buyers bought by looking at the picture only and expected a ceramic coffee mug regardless of the description.  I worked with Laura Chambers and her team and applied all their ideas with no results.  A certain segment of people were shopping picture only, not even reading the title, let alone the description and then complaining and returning the mugs as "SNAD".  I've handled this just by rolling my eyes and giving out the returns.   Finally on 1/1/2018 i made the decision to attempt to fix this by offering choice listings and bringing in ceramic mugs to handle the 5% who can't read.  Now they have to select which one they want.  So far, I've had no returns this year, but I'm not entirely through this process yet.  

 

My concern that I want your team to strongly consider is rather or not you're putting too much "faith" in the word of the buyer and the responsibilty of the seller to overcome niave buying.   My guess is that you now want us to report every buyer who gives a reason for a return that is clearly fraudualent.  But I'm uneasy with that because I wanted eBay to move away from a "buyer verses seller, fight to death" world.    Devin Wenig had hooked me up with Dieter Newlin back in 2014 and we had indepth discussions about this very thing.  I'm thinking the closer we can get to a world where "right and wrong" doesn't matter as much as just taking care of the customer does the better off eBay will be.  Now, I know we can't all get there, there are MANY models that can't embrace a "free return" world, but for those of us that can... shouldn't just taking care of our customers be the main thing?   This is especially true in clothing.  There is no greater way to overcome the touch and feel weakness of online shopping than standing behind our items with a free return that is mediated by eBay and guaranteed to them.  Words and pictures can't over come this... trust me I've tried since 2003.  We just can't always fix stupid, and we're always going to face a segment of the population that is educated on the 5th grade level scale or under and they just aren't all Harvard graduates with highest IQ's. My concern is that internal eBay is surrounded by smart people that don't reflect the real world, LOL.   Rather than pitting buyer against seller, placing enimity between buyer and seller, can't we just move as close as we each can to a "free return" model and then stand behind those who offer it, knowing that if our returns are out of whack, the free market system will take us under if we don't climb on top of it ourselves? Then simply limiting returns of those who abuse the priveledge if necassary... without getting sellers involved.   

 

To be clear, I'm not outright condemning this move, but I'm just concerned that it's, IMO, a step in the wrong direction especially for those embracing the free return model.   I get returns all the time because a medium shirt doesn't fit and therefore is SNAD.  I get them on hats that are "missing parts and pieces" ???? Really ????.  I've gotten them on my own unique shirt sold exclusively on eBay because it "is not like the Irish shirt I bought at the mall last month" ??? Figure that one out!    In the end does it matter?  No... the customer want's a return and they don't even have to ask me for that... it's pre-approved and guaranteed to them by eBay!  (AWESOME BTW!) A Free return is the least I can offer them on a purchase that they can't touch and feel before buying and can't try on and look at themselves in the mirror before paying.  Let's make that the WINNING HAND!  Because really, IT IS!

 

I don't mean this in a critcal manner... just ponder it internally and maybe hire a few high school drop outs to hang around you so you can learn how a sub-set of people think that will provide you smart people with quality entertainment and help you rethink some of this. 🙂   Or... go to your nearest walmart and watch people  enter it through the exit doors all day long!  Back in my day we didn't have motion detectors... we had mats you stepped on and the doors were one way doors with ENTER and EXIT... and if I had a dollar for each idiot I saw hit the glass in the 80's I'd be almost as rich as Mr. Wenig.  LOL...     Is the reason for the free return really that important????   I think not.  it's more entertaining than educational.  Think about it.  

 

Danny


@honeville1

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and we hear you - buyers sometimes can file a request for return out of remorse, and we are aware this happens to most sellers.

 

What is different in the tool you will receive here is that you will see your return request rate for Not as Described reasons in comparison to your peers - the same peers who experience the unfortunate remorse scenarios that are not in your control. The peer group you will be placed in will be selling similar items.

 

I am really glad to hear the free returns has helped bring these scenarios down for you a bit.

Message 3 of 34
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...

Thank you... like I said, I'm not panicing, and will keep an eye on it but I will not back down on FREE returns!  I love it and so do my buyers.  I continue to look for ways to improve descriptions on printed on demand t-shirts but in the end I've given up on trying to create the perfect "fool proof" listing and instead am focused on simply taking care of the customers with a self-serve, pre-approved, ebay mediated and totally FREE return!  

 

I have a shirt that reads "Chocolate is the answer.  I'm sorry, what was the question" LOL... and I'm like "Free-Returns is the answer"!!!!  I can't promise them it's everything "they think" it is... but I can promise them if they're not happy neither am I!  Pre-approved and free returns! True risk free buying!  For me, that's the ticket.  Should the day come when that's "not good enough" to secure me a home selling exclusively on eBay and in the best of terms with eBay... well that would indeed be a sad day.  I doubt I have anything to be worried about.... but still... seller metrics always make us nervious.

 

 photo HONEVILLELOGO-1.jpg

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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...

You state clearly in the Summer announcement that if you go beyond 1% of your total customers in a 3 month period getting " Not As Described " reason codes then you will be penalized with a 4% gross fee.
That for us could be tens of thousands of dollars in additional fee's.

You do not state that if our peers are all at 3% and were at 1.5% then we won't get penalized. 
So if your tool is honest and reporting real peer numbers and were all at 1.06% becuase of all the wrongful return reasons in our category then it's to be assumed were ALL getting a 4% fee hike for the dishonesty and or confussion of the buyers (like before) who seem to use
the wrong return codes ? 
This is NOT about your new tool it's about a 4% fee which is alot worse then the last program you put us through. Just today we had a NOT AS DESCRIBED because the customer says the white shirt we sold them is not bright of a white enough for them so they open up a case. This happens alot and it's not always people trying to get free shipping , the problem is in the return reason codes and how customers of fashion preceive them.  Colors especially.  And according to the Ebay rep we spoke too there will be NO WAY to get these taken off our account even when there's a clear paper trail that its buyer remorse. 
Very sad and very unfair. 

Message 5 of 34
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...

On the comprehension comments- I had a buyer wanting me to cancel the item she had won.   Long involved incoherant reasons, which really didn't matter, if she didn't want it afterall, of course I'll cancel.   

 

The kicker is- the option she chose to send me the message asking to cancel was "SNAD".   And the item had not shipped yet!

Would this count against me under the new proceedure?       

Message 6 of 34
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...


@islandapparel wrote:

You state clearly in the Summer announcement that if you go beyond 1% of your total customers in a 3 month period getting " Not As Described " reason codes then you will be penalized with a 4% gross fee.
That for us could be tens of thousands of dollars in additional fee's.

You do not state that if our peers are all at 3% and were at 1.5% then we won't get penalized. 
So if your tool is honest and reporting real peer numbers and were all at 1.06% becuase of all the wrongful return reasons in our category then it's to be assumed were ALL getting a 4% fee hike for the dishonesty and or confussion of the buyers (like before) who seem to use
the wrong return codes ? 
This is NOT about your new tool it's about a 4% fee which is alot worse then the last program you put us through. Just today we had a NOT AS DESCRIBED because the customer says the white shirt we sold them is not bright of a white enough for them so they open up a case. This happens alot and it's not always people trying to get free shipping , the problem is in the return reason codes and how customers of fashion preceive them.  Colors especially.  And according to the Ebay rep we spoke too there will be NO WAY to get these taken off our account even when there's a clear paper trail that its buyer remorse. 
Very sad and very unfair. 


Hi @islandapparel I can see how this can be confusing. One thing to clarify - the 1% is an example of one peer group where the average not as described return rate is 1%. This average changes depending on your peer group.

 

To determine your “item not as described” peer benchmark, we group you with sellers that:

  • List on the same eBay site and in the same category
  • Share the same assessment lookback period (3 or 12 months), as determined by transaction volume
  • Have a similar “average selling price”
  • Sell items with similar item conditions—generally new or not-new conditions
  • Offer a similar return policy—usually returns accepted or returns not accepted policies
  • Sell items with similar buyer-facing delivery estimates
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...


@noodlevette wrote:

On the comprehension comments- I had a buyer wanting me to cancel the item she had won.   Long involved incoherant reasons, which really didn't matter, if she didn't want it afterall, of course I'll cancel.   

 

The kicker is- the option she chose to send me the message asking to cancel was "SNAD".   And the item had not shipped yet!

Would this count against me under the new proceedure?       


Hi @noodlevette, yes, requests filed by a buyer for SNAD that is actually remorse is included in the peer benchmark. The good news for you is this is true across your peer group as well. We consider a number of factors to make sure how often this happens for the kinds of items you sell are similar to those in your peer group. 

Message 8 of 34
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...

Really? This is good news to ebay employees?

 

The good news?  That buyers lie to get free return shipping?
The good news?  That buyers lie and give false statements that slander the seller?
The good news?  That even when the buyer admits that they got exactly what they ordered but decided they wanted to return it and claim some silly FALSE snad reason, the seller is slapped with a case, their metrics suffer and they are possibly getting increased fees because of it?

The good news?  Ebay knows that buyers lie, ebay knows that cases are false.  eBay knows that buyers are scamming sellers?

 

But the good news? It happens to everyone?

 

Good news?  What am I missing?

Message 9 of 34
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...

on my main id dashboard currently i have 3 returns out of 561 sales.  and that puts me at .53 return rate.  so i think everyone should prepare for a 4% increase in fees.  bleh.......

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Conan ‘Wolf’ Nov 14, 2007
Message 10 of 34
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...


@golf-usga wrote:

Really? This is good news to ebay employees?

 

The good news?  That buyers lie to get free return shipping?
The good news?  That buyers lie and give false statements that slander the seller?
The good news?  That even when the buyer admits that they got exactly what they ordered but decided they wanted to return it and claim some silly FALSE snad reason, the seller is slapped with a case, their metrics suffer and they are possibly getting increased fees because of it?

The good news?  Ebay knows that buyers lie, ebay knows that cases are false.  eBay knows that buyers are scamming sellers?

 

But the good news? It happens to everyone?

 

Good news?  What am I missing?


@golf-usga - You are right that we still have more work to do to partner with you to direct buyers to file return requests for the correct reasons and encouraging positive communication. 

 

The good news is related to how a peer benchmark is determined in the upcoming Seller Metrics tool. A number of scenarios are considered so that when you see the Not as Described return requests so that the requests driven by remorse are not skewing your results. Scenarios include:

  • List on the same eBay site and in the same category
  • Share the same assessment lookback period (3 or 12 months), as determined by transaction volume
  • Have a similar “average selling price”
  • Sell items with similar item conditions—generally new or not-new conditions
  • Offer a similar return policy—usually returns accepted or returns not accepted policies
  • Sell items with similar buyer-facing delivery estimates

We have not forgotten to be proactive about solving for Seller Protections. Learn more about what we announced earlier this year on where we are increasing focus for protections: 

https://pages.ebay.com/seller-center/seller-updates/2018-spring/seller-protection.html#seller-protec...

 

 

 

Message 11 of 34
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...


@honeville1 wrote:

Thank you... like I said, I'm not panicing, and will keep an eye on it but I will not back down on FREE returns!  I love it and so do my buyers.  I continue to look for ways to improve descriptions on printed on demand t-shirts but in the end I've given up on trying to create the perfect "fool proof" listing and instead am focused on simply taking care of the customers with a self-serve, pre-approved, ebay mediated and totally FREE return!  

 

I have a shirt that reads "Chocolate is the answer.  I'm sorry, what was the question" LOL... and I'm like "Free-Returns is the answer"!!!!  I can't promise them it's everything "they think" it is... but I can promise them if they're not happy neither am I!  Pre-approved and free returns! True risk free buying!  For me, that's the ticket.  Should the day come when that's "not good enough" to secure me a home selling exclusively on eBay and in the best of terms with eBay... well that would indeed be a sad day.  I doubt I have anything to be worried about.... but still... seller metrics always make us nervious.

 


@honeville1 Awesome news! This is an incredible approach that keeps your customers coming back. My favorite, "I can't promise them it's everything "they think" it is... but I can promise them if they're not happy neither am I!"

 

#freereturnsarethenewchocolate

Message 12 of 34
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...

#freereturnsarethenewchocolate

 

ooh boy Rachael... that just might have to go on a t-shirt! 😉  LOL... LOVE that hashtag!  

 photo HONEVILLELOGO-1.jpg

Message 13 of 34
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...


@raquel_bayarea wrote:

@honeville1 wrote:

Thank you... like I said, I'm not panicing, and will keep an eye on it but I will not back down on FREE returns!  I love it and so do my buyers.  I continue to look for ways to improve descriptions on printed on demand t-shirts but in the end I've given up on trying to create the perfect "fool proof" listing and instead am focused on simply taking care of the customers with a self-serve, pre-approved, ebay mediated and totally FREE return!  

 

I have a shirt that reads "Chocolate is the answer.  I'm sorry, what was the question" LOL... and I'm like "Free-Returns is the answer"!!!!  I can't promise them it's everything "they think" it is... but I can promise them if they're not happy neither am I!  Pre-approved and free returns! True risk free buying!  For me, that's the ticket.  Should the day come when that's "not good enough" to secure me a home selling exclusively on eBay and in the best of terms with eBay... well that would indeed be a sad day.  I doubt I have anything to be worried about.... but still... seller metrics always make us nervious.

 


@honeville1 Awesome news! This is an incredible approach that keeps your customers coming back. My favorite, "I can't promise them it's everything "they think" it is... but I can promise them if they're not happy neither am I!"

 

#freereturnsarethenewchocolate


Requel   Just because  Honeville1  free returns  works  his business  model  ,Doesn't mean it works  for every seller's business models  .    By way  I bought my first item in 1997  when  I bet some mod's where in 4th grade . Smiley Wink

Message 14 of 34
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I have some concerns for eBay execs to conisder...


@raquel_bayarea wrote:

@noodlevette wrote:

On the comprehension comments- I had a buyer wanting me to cancel the item she had won.   Long involved incoherant reasons, which really didn't matter, if she didn't want it afterall, of course I'll cancel.   

 

The kicker is- the option she chose to send me the message asking to cancel was "SNAD".   And the item had not shipped yet!

Would this count against me under the new proceedure?       


Hi @noodlevette, yes, requests filed by a buyer for SNAD that is actually remorse is included in the peer benchmark. The good news for you is this is true across your peer group as well. We consider a number of factors to make sure how often this happens for the kinds of items you sell are similar to those in your peer group. 


What 'good news"???  REALLY?  And when these count against us in the Fall as part of our selling stats, I suppose that is "good news" too?  Exactly what part is GOOD?

 

It is unrealistic and unfair.  Ebay holding us to carry the weight of something that they themselves are unwilling to participate in and correct.  They could if they wanted to, but they choose not to and let their sellers suffer the consequences and there will be problems for us due to this ridiculous matrix.

 

At every turn Ebay promotes "return your item" to buyers.  With big bold buttons, links and labels everywhere.  No problem, you sneezed on your new item and no longer want it, return it to your seller at their expense and make them suffer the additional sanction of having their selling stats negatively affected.  Yep sarcasm and anger over Ebay lack of support and protection of its sellers.  


mam98031  •  Volunteer Community Member
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