fair decision from ebay?

[rati-store]

We have account in US, listings in ebay.de and sales around EU. We had case in Italy. We delivered letter without tracking because we can't get it to letters and packages are so expensive that with those prices we don't get orders. And ebay accepts only tracking from transport companies which are integrated to their system and not available to us. We have sold 6 years and noticed that tracking costs compared to benefits are not so clear. 

Buyer in Italy did not get our package. We deliver always advices already in advance what to do. Buyer opened request, we discussed with him in written form and agreed that he will check local post office. We promised to refund buyer but waited his answer. 3 days time went and ebay told that buyer has asked them to make final decision. Buyer told afterwards that he has still time to wait, he was not in Italy during those 3 days.

ebay decided to refund money to buyer. Only reason was that we had not shown tracking codes. We all know that buyer has 21 days time to ask ebay to step in. We keep it weird that ebay did not respect what was agreed between buyer and seller. When we told to ebay that buyer has not asked ebay to review the case, one lady warned us that ebay will not step in without either buyer or seller ask them to do it and that their files are accurate.  We know that it is not true, we have enough experiences of that. We shew 2 examples where even their own worker told that they had make mistake. Also the day when she told that buyer has asked review could not be true.

So we had good reason to believe that buyer had not asked them to step in. Then they send final decision al thought we had not appealed. We can see from their pages that seller has appealed the case but when we asked them to send copy of appeal to us they stopped answering. When chatting with Italy they demanded us to use Italy language and told that they don't have to tell anything to us, case is closed and contact ebay.com. 

We have a strong feeling that this is not right but how we can do anything when ebay does not answer.  There are more details but the main point is that if buyer really asked ebay to step in, is it our fault, why ebay warn us of revealing their earlier mistakes  and why they appeal in behalf of us.

We are not asking money back from buyer because we already promised to return his money before eBays decision. Either ebay or buyer or both lied to us. Why we have to carry response of their doings?

Is there anything what we can do?

[rati-store]

If it only could be so simple. 

We did everything possible to help the buyer. We agreed what to do. We don't know what exactly means "you've met your obligations to the buyer".

We can't use eBay's integrated shipping carriers. From some other companies we can get tracking to packages but ebay does not keep them valid. That means we don't have seller protection ever. But we haven't asked for it in this case. We have openly told that we will pay the customer his money back. We had no disagreements with the buyer. We have not contested our payment obligation in any way. We also offered the buyer a replacement shipment.

From ebay rules:
Ask eBay for help
If the seller has not responded to you within 3 working days or has not offered you an acceptable solution, you can ask us to intervene.

We offered an acceptable solution and the buyer even after ebay's decision told that he has still time to wait. We don't understand why the buyer would have asked ebay to come forward, because he never said a word that our proposal would not have suited to him. So we believed that once again eBay misinformed.
However, if the buyer lied to us, couldn't ebay have made a different decision because they saw that we were honest and open about it and buyer was speaking differently with us than with them.

[rati-store]

What do you want to say to our comment in text: 

Then they send final decision al thought we had not appealed. We can see from their pages that seller has appealed the case but when we asked them to send copy of appeal to us they stopped answering.

[rati-store]

We already answered to you but we still have one comment:

Then they send final decision al thought we had not appealed. We can see from their pages that seller has appealed the case but when we asked them to send copy of appeal to us they stopped answering.

Do you keep that right? We have not got copy of appeal al thought we have asked it several times.

We have another discussion here: https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/which-ebay-we-should-finally-contact/td-p/34207192/page/2. It is almost same there because the conversation went off the rails. We were there for a slightly different matter.

[rati-store]

What about this:

Then they send final decision al thought we had not appealed. We can see from their pages that seller has appealed the case but when we asked them to send copy of appeal to us they stopped answering.

Do you keep that OK? We have not got copy of appeal al thought we have asked it.

We have another discussion here: https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/which-ebay-we-should-finally-contact/td-p/34207192/page/2.  It was originally for different purpose but it "run away".

[tobaccocardyahoo]

You are arguing from a weak position.

If you do not have tracking, you cannot prove the buyer received the item.

Ebay is first and foremost a U.S. company.

Under U.S. law a mail order seller is responsible for the safe delivery of all purchases to the buyer.

Ebay is shouldering part of the risk for the seller's purchases when the sellers do not require a signature on delivery. Tracking is not always accepted as proof of delivery.

If Ebay were to pay your losses on untracked shipments, they would just have to raise their fees to all sellers. Since in the U.S. tracking is expected by most buyers, and the costs are cheap, this is an undue burden. There are more Ebay sellers in the U.S. than there are adults in Finland, we do not want to pay a higher fee to support you.

The system is geared to force sellers to reach a solution for the buyer problem before Ebay is involved.

There is no way to determine whether the buyer is telling the truth or not when they claim a package is not received, but there is significant reason to believe a buyer might be lying if the tracking says delivered.

Ebay has many more sellers than it needs, but no where near enough buyers.

You will not find any other large Internet marketplace any more accommodating to a seller who cannot afford to track.

[rati-store]

Still something:

Then they send final decision al thought we had not appealed. We can see from their pages that seller has appealed the case but when we asked them to send copy of appeal to us they stopped answering.

Do you keep that right? We have not got copy of appeal al thought we have asked it several times.

We have another discussion here: https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/which-ebay-we-should-finally-contact/td-p/34207192/page/2. It is almost same there because the conversation went off the rails. 

[soh.maryl]

You have made the decision not to use tracking.  Presumably, you understood the risk that entails and were willing to take that risk.  

Sorry to be harsh, but none of the information in your various messages makes any difference in light of the above facts.  

[rati-store]

We still have one comment:

Then they send final decision al thought we had not appealed. We can see from their pages that seller has appealed the case but when we asked them to send copy of appeal to us they stopped answering.

Do you keep that right? We have not got copy of appeal.

We have another discussion here: https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/which-ebay-we-should-finally-contact/td-p/34207192/page/2. It is almost same there because the conversation went off the rails. 

[celkla-7]

Dealing with disputes on online platforms like eBay can be challenging, but there are some steps you can take to address the situation:

1. Contact eBay Support Again:

   • Try reaching out to eBay support again. Clearly outline the situation, including the agreement with the buyer and any evidence you have. Emphasize that the buyer did not request eBay to step in and that you were not given an opportunity to appeal.

2. Use eBay's Resolution Center:

   • If you haven't already, utilize eBay's Resolution Center to communicate with the buyer and eBay support. Provide any relevant information and documents that support your case.

3. Appeal the Decision:

   • If eBay incorrectly marked that you appealed the case without your knowledge, insist on clarifying this. Ask for proof of the appeal and communicate that you were not given the chance to appeal the decision.

4. Document Everything:

   • Keep a record of all communications with eBay, the buyer, and any evidence you have regarding the agreement with the buyer. This documentation may be useful if you need to escalate the matter.

5. Consider eBay's Seller Protection:

   • Review eBay's Seller Protection policies. If you followed all eBay policies and can demonstrate that, you may be eligible for seller protection. Present this information to eBay support.

6. Contact eBay Executive Escalations:

   • If standard support channels are not providing a satisfactory resolution, you may try reaching out to eBay's executive escalations team. Search online for eBay executive contacts or email addresses, and escalate your case.

7. Social Media Channels:

   • Some sellers have reported success in getting attention by reaching out to eBay through their official social media channels. Companies often respond promptly to public queries on platforms like Twitter or Facebook.

8. Legal Advice:

   • If all else fails, you might want to consult legal advice, especially if you believe your case is not being handled fairly. Consult with an attorney who specializes in online commerce or consumer protection laws.

[house*of*paws]

Hi @rati-store 

I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet ... as I skimmed through the previous answers quickly ... but you and the buyer are still able to cooperate with each other to locate and/or wait for the envelope to arrive.  Once it does ... the buyer can resend you the money through PayPal (or through whatever money transfer system is available in Italy).

I know that eBay would NOT step in without being asked in a Return request ... and I just learned something new about what happens with an 'item not received' claim.  It makes sense that a bot would make the refund automatically (after a given amount of time) if the seller hasn't provided a tracking number.  That would be to protect new buyers who don't have a clue as to how eBay works.  

I'm really sorry this happened ... and I hope you have an honest buyer who will feel responsible for repaying you if they ever receive the item.  

[kensgiftshop]

There's nothing to address.

The buyer didn't receive their item and filed an INR.

OP didn't have tracking showing it was delivered and buyer was refunded, case closed.

[rati-store]

Many thanks for your quick response. We agree on many things in general, but not in this particular case. You haven't read our comments, so let's repeat a few things.

We haven't even tried to claim that the buyer had received the shipment and we would have returned the money to him anyway. We have no disagreements with the buyer.

In Europe and ebay, the sender is responsible in exactly(?) the same way as in the USA.

No one has tried to seek compensation of any kind from ebay, you have completely misunderstood the matter, so there will be no costs for you.

It was about ebay stepping in, even though the buyer and seller had agreed on measures to find the package and further measures if it is not found. We act according to the instructions of ebay and the carrier. Ebay works partially automatically, which of course makes sense. But based on the buyer's messages, he did not ask ebay to come up after 3 days (if you are interested, you can read behind the link why we came to this conclusion, we already had clear evidence from previous cases). With this automatic action, ebay caused us a situation where we lost 2000 listings as punishment. So it wasn't about a small amount of money, €22, but about a huge amount of work. This wasn't the first time and it hasn't always been about tracking codes.

The amount of buyers compared with sellers has nothing to do with this case. And we are not invading your market, don't worry.

We can afford tracking, but our customers can't, and when you can't always get it even with money. These are the things that people who live in big countries and the competition between Freight Forwarders is fierce, don't understand.

But you were in such full speed that you didn't notice our question. Do you have experience of cases where ebay's system is so automated that they even make a final decision without appealing. We have not appealed the case on 29th November as they claim and they also gave a final decision on the same day.

[rati-store]

Many thanks for your fast response. We did not make decision not to use the tracking. We simply can't get it to letters. We understand the risk what it comes to tracking but we can't do anything to risk if ebay steps in or not without requesting.

But we actually tried to ask is it acceptable that ebay makes final decision al thought we have not appealed. Could you accept it, if you were a seller, that ebay takes your rights to appeal which ebay first has granted to you? 

We regret that we have to repeat things so many times but it is not wonder when part of people have not read Ebay's help pages and rest are closing their eyes from facts.

[rati-store]

Many thanks for your excellent response. We have tried almost all those which you mention, but luckily there are also some new ways. We will study it now carefully. Have a nice day.

[lacemaker3]

@rati-store 

You are not discussing this, you are arguing about it. But you're wrong.  There have been 27 responses so far, on this thread alone, and nobody has agreed with you. You are not correct.

It doesn't matter what you think is logical. This is not a debate. eBay doesn't care what you think about it. The only interpretation that matters, is eBay's interpretation, and eBay does not agree with you. eBay does not care what you say, or how long you argue. It's a waste of time and a waste of your breath. No matter how long you keep arguing about this, eBay is not going to change the result.

No tracking = no seller protection = the seller loses.

It doesn't matter if the buyer asked for eBay to step in or not. eBay became aware of what was going on, and eBay stepped in. eBay decided according to eBay policy. No tracking = the seller loses.

Whatever your next argument is, it doesn't matter. You have lost. You can't win this. It is not going to happen.

---

"Please, give me the serenity

"To accept the things I cannot change,

"The courage to change the things I can,

"And the wisdom to know the difference."

The serenity prayer