fair decision from ebay?

[rati-store]

We have account in US, listings in ebay.de and sales around EU. We had case in Italy. We delivered letter without tracking because we can't get it to letters and packages are so expensive that with those prices we don't get orders. And ebay accepts only tracking from transport companies which are integrated to their system and not available to us. We have sold 6 years and noticed that tracking costs compared to benefits are not so clear. 

Buyer in Italy did not get our package. We deliver always advices already in advance what to do. Buyer opened request, we discussed with him in written form and agreed that he will check local post office. We promised to refund buyer but waited his answer. 3 days time went and ebay told that buyer has asked them to make final decision. Buyer told afterwards that he has still time to wait, he was not in Italy during those 3 days.

ebay decided to refund money to buyer. Only reason was that we had not shown tracking codes. We all know that buyer has 21 days time to ask ebay to step in. We keep it weird that ebay did not respect what was agreed between buyer and seller. When we told to ebay that buyer has not asked ebay to review the case, one lady warned us that ebay will not step in without either buyer or seller ask them to do it and that their files are accurate.  We know that it is not true, we have enough experiences of that. We shew 2 examples where even their own worker told that they had make mistake. Also the day when she told that buyer has asked review could not be true.

So we had good reason to believe that buyer had not asked them to step in. Then they send final decision al thought we had not appealed. We can see from their pages that seller has appealed the case but when we asked them to send copy of appeal to us they stopped answering. When chatting with Italy they demanded us to use Italy language and told that they don't have to tell anything to us, case is closed and contact ebay.com. 

We have a strong feeling that this is not right but how we can do anything when ebay does not answer.  There are more details but the main point is that if buyer really asked ebay to step in, is it our fault, why ebay warn us of revealing their earlier mistakes  and why they appeal in behalf of us.

We are not asking money back from buyer because we already promised to return his money before eBays decision. Either ebay or buyer or both lied to us. Why we have to carry response of their doings?

Is there anything what we can do?

[kensgiftshop]

Buyer can ask Ebay to step in after 3 days.

When the INR was opened, did you respond to the case at all?

If you didn't, Ebay took care of the buyer.

All you can do is start shipping with tracking so that wouldn't happen.

[rati-store]

We responded but we did not refund because we waited buyers answer. We asked buyer to urge and told to buyer that most probably ebay will put words to his mouth and claims that he has asked ebay to step in al thought he don't do it. As said, we had experience.

We had fair discussion with buyer and we had feeling that he trusted to us. That is why it is so difficult to believe ebay. There was no need to do decision in favor of buyer because there was no disagreement who will pay costs.

We can't use tracking in letters because it is not possible. We use tracking in packages. Tracking is not mandatory, it only makes easier for ebay to make decision. Or how you understand for example this part in user agreement: "Any guidance eBay provides as part of our Services, such as ... shipping, ...is solely informational and you may decide to follow it or not"

English is not our native language so it might cause misunderstandings. 

And we were asking what to do now? Do you understand what kind rights ebay has to appeal in behalf of us? Why they refuse to send copy of appeal to us? We know that they can't do it because they don't have it.

[janet9988]

Ebay can step in to refund the buyer because you never provided any tracking.

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy...

[klhmdg]

Nothing you can do now.

eBay would not have stepped in on day 3 unless the buyer asked them to.

The buyer had to go into the case on day 3 and request eBay to step in or else it would still be waiting.

[kensgiftshop]

There's nothing to appeal.

You couldn't provide tracking that showed the item was delivered.

No tracking, buyer gets a refund.

[rati-store]

Ebay told that buyer has asked them to review the case. So the case was not exactly "if there is no valid tracking...."

What ebay means with "valid" tracking is not possible for us. We sent a photo of letter and asked buyer to check address and go to local post office as it is advised to do by transport company. Buyer promised to do so and answer to us.

We can see from your message that buyer has 21 days time to ask ebay to step in. Case was closed 18th November and after that, when buyer had went to post office, he said that he can wait until the end of November. 

We don't believe that buyer asked ebay to step in. We have met same thing earlier couple of times. 

Tracking is not said to be mandatory in ebay pages.

[rati-store]

You might be right in this case but not in all cases. Only ebay has access to all files and messages and we should trust to them but we don't. Finally ebay workers are just human beings like buyers and sellers. Worst cases have been in court.

ebay worker warned us and said the same as you that ebay will never step in unless buyer or seller does not request it. We shew 2 cases where in the first case a buyer from Spain sweared that he has not requested ebay to step in and ebay cancelled their decision, it did not cause defect marking to us. In the second case in Sweden buyer told that he has not asked ebay to step in. ebay worker from US admitted that ebay colleagues had made a mistake and promised to contact managers and arrange re-education to those workers. We got defect marking because we did not understand to ask ebay to remove it in 30 days time.

We did not get any comments after that to fact, that ebay does not step in unless buyer or seller does not request it, from lady who warned us and neither from anyone else. We got a good reason to believe that also in this case ebay was not asked to step in as they told to us. They also told that buyer asked them to step in 18th of November. We got their message 00:09 Italy time, so according to that buyer requested to review the case during those 9 minutes and ebay reviewed, made decision and sent decision to us during that same time. Who believes believes, we don't.

[soh.maryl]

The bottom line here is that there is no tracking proving delivery.  Buyer opened an item not received case.  Neither the buyer nor eBay did anything wrong.  And, yes, regardless of any agreement you may think you had with the buyer, the buyer asked eBay to step in.  

Maybe you will see the wisdom of using tracking from now on.  You can bump up your prices accordingly.

A few other points:  eBay CS workers will assure you that you are right just to get you off the phone.

Also what "cases have been in court"?  Sellers agree not to get into litigation when they sign up to sell here. 

[rati-store]

As we said, we promised to refund the buyer after he had visited in local post office. That was agreed.

If buyer lied to us, why ebay punished us.  ebay has all available information in their use, seller or buyer has not.  If ebay reviews the case and promises to make as fair decision as possible, why they did not read what was agreed between buyer and seller. There was a lot other information than just missing tracking codes.

From ebay pages:

"In brief
The easiest way to resolve item requests that have not been received is to provide tracking information that shows the product's shipping address and delivery date."

Doesn't it mean that tracking is not the only way, al thought it could be easiest,  find out what is stage of delivery?

From ebay pages to buyer:

"However, if you and the seller work together to find a solution, you do not need to ask us to intervene after 3 days. Most sellers really want to solve buyers' problems, so if you're still talking about it, give them a little more time to figure things out. However, you have 21 days to ask us to intervene."

Buyer  and seller were working together and agreed in written form what to do but Ebay Italy decided something else.

Maybe there was something worth to appeal because ebay appealed the case and claimed that we have appealed. Do you understand? Until now we have not got copy of our appeal al thought we have asked it several times. We simply can't accept that ebay uses our rights to appeal in our case. So your "There's nothing to appeal" sounds weird. What to do now?

[kensgiftshop]

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@rati-store wrote:

What to do now?

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There's nothing to do.

Buyer has been refunded and the case closed.

[tobaccocardyahoo]

You made the decision to offer the product for sale to Italy knowing you could not provide tracking.

Whether you realized it or not, you decided to risk this situation.

Ebay is too big for anyone to read whatever arrangement you and the buyer may have made. Ebay is too big for humans to handle INR claims. All of the successful Internet marketplaces are too big for human intelligence.

You either plan to follow the procedures set or plan to take a loss when things go wrong.

Hopefully, things will not go wrong, but for 50 years or more the Italian Post Office has had a high probability of things going wrong.

I hope this was a relatively cheap learning experience for you.

[rati-store]

Tracking is not mandatory but makes it easier to follow deliveries. 

Buyer opened a request, you are right and after that we agreed what to do. We are confident until proven otherwise that the buyer did not ask ebay to step forward. Why would he have asked when we had already promised to return the money, so he was going to get his money back anyway without ebay's intervention and he still had 18 days to ask for help from ebay if necessary. It has happened several times to us that ebay has stepped in without our's or buyer's request. And we have proven it and even their worker admitted that in 2 cases. We just wonder how it has happened to us but not to anyone else. Maybe others just blindly trust ebay workers, we don't. Do you keep it right and to inspire confidence. 

If buyer asked ebay to step in, then he lied to us. Who is quilty. eBay has promised to do as fair decision as possible. We are not asking anything back from buyer.

You said that ebay did not do anything wrong. We don't agree at all. If they say that ebay does not step in if either buyer or seller ask them to do it and they have made it several times, do you really think that "it is nothing wrong"?  They said that we have appealed the case 29th November but were not possible to sent copy of appeal to us.  

You are right about what has been said in user agreement but....  We are looking for an other solution how to get ebay to carry response of their workers doings, that is why we are here. We can't speak with Italy Team because we don't speak Italy, we tried to chat and the only things which came clear was: "we don't have to tell you anything". And they were busy to get rid of us, like you said. 

What it comes to cases in court or arbitration, we keep it natural that there are also them. Just open your eyes. It might be better to not give any links here.  Use Google search.

You don't have to believe us but what we told happens to be true. Imagine that we are right and tell then what we can do.

[janet9988]

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@rati-store wrote:

Ebay told that buyer has asked them to review the case. So the case was not exactly "if there is no valid tracking...."

What ebay means with "valid" tracking is not possible for us. We sent a photo of letter and asked buyer to check address and go to local post office as it is advised to do by transport company. Buyer promised to do so and answer to us.

We can see from your message that buyer has 21 days time to ask ebay to step in. Case was closed 18th November and after that, when buyer had went to post office, he said that he can wait until the end of November. 

We don't believe that buyer asked ebay to step in. We have met same thing earlier couple of times. 

Tracking is not said to be mandatory in ebay pages.

---

It IS mandatory if you want seller protection. Had the buyer not opened up a claim you would have been good.

[rati-store]

Thank you for excellent answer.

We have been aware of risk, especially when delivering to Italy. The problems are coming mainly only from there. 

eBay is big company and we agree that they handle information automatically and it is wise to do so.

But they have had also time to answer until we revealed their mistakes. So they had time to look carefully details and they even said that they have done it. Information from their side was questionable and a lot wrong information. It makes difficult to concentrate to what is important.

What we kept most difficult to understand is that they gave final decision before we had appealed. Let say that it is already too automated and gives impression that it is same whatever you say; the decision is same. We actually have already good guess why this happened but we don't want to reveal it yet. We can give a hint from your text: Ebay is too big for humans to handle INR claims

The price of package with delivery costs was around 22€, almost nothing. But we had earlier another defect which we neither could accept and our seller performance in global market area went under average so they punished us. We had 3000 listings and they removed 2000 away. It was not relatively cheap experience what you hoped. We did not learn anything, we made everything as well as it was possible. As said earlier we even warned buyer in advance that ebay will put words to his mouth and claim that he has request them to step in. How you can be ready for anything like that? We tried to keep our word to buyer but we were punished from that. ebay should be more careful or remove all those useless advices from their help pages.