UPS, Fedex and Ebay Shipping Insurance - Dodging practices

[arnaudevi-0]

Dear Ebay community,

my experience goes something like the following, please let know if it affected you too.

1) I sell an item to an Ebay buyer.

2) I ship the item with UPS Ground, supposedly covered by $100 shipping insurance (damage or lost)

3) Buyer receives item damaged. Takes and shares pictures.

4) Buyer request return on the grounds the item is damaged.

5) Ebay essentially leaves 4 days to the seller to refund the buyer.

6) I authorize said return (not like I have a choice anyway)

7) Ebay creates a shipping label for the return using USPS (no prompt, Ebay's decision)

😎 I receive the damaged item and validate the buyer's conclusion and issue full refund (again, not like I have a choice).

9) I file a claim with UPS for damage in shipping.

10) UPS calls me back

11) First question UPS asks, which carrier returned the item?

12) I answer USPS

13) UPS agent follows the script: "oh well, it was shipped back by USPS, not by us, so we can't possibly inspect the damaged goods to determine we are responsible" (I paraphrase here)

14) UPS agent recognizes it is a frequent occurrence with Ebay sellers' claims. I think it's the majority.

So my question is simple: are Ebay and UPS (and likely others like Fedex) colluding to make sure no shipping damage claim is ever accepted?

What is the success rate of shipping damage claims made by Ebay sellers to carriers like UPS? My guess is below 5%, when the standard Ebay operating procedure essentially "voids" UPS claim inspection process, with no input whatsoever from the buyer.

What has been your experience?

[arnaudevi-0]

Looks like UPS is familiar with questionable insurance practices:
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/class-action/ups-loses-bid-to-get-insurance-lawsuit-moved-to-arbitrati...

[rebell45]

So my question is simple: are Ebay and UPS (and likely others like Fedex) colluding to make sure no shipping damage claim is ever accepted?

That's pretty much it, but proving it would be the problem.  My suggestion is to open your own UPS & FedEx accounts and use them to confirm eBay's estimates, and in cases like yours, provide a return shipping label. That way at least UPS would be more apt to deal with you.  Of course I read about one seller that was able to get a UPS insurance claim paid. Only problem was that since eBay is the account holder, they received the claim money.  Don't know if they ever gave it to the seller.

[arnaudevi-0]

I would really like to get my hands on some claims data, even if just anecdotal for now.

I can set up a poll somewhere for Ebay sellers: where would I be able to get the most eyes on this?

[itscalledapostingid]

For the future change your return settings to require an RMA number on returns. When a buyer requests a return nothing will happen until you respond with an RMA number. That will prevent Ebay from automatically sending a return label . Gives you a chance to provide a shipping label of your choice to the buyer or offer some other resolution.

[myescape]

My understanding is you void any insurance of any carrier if you have buyer return item

[arnaudevi-0]

The item had a no return policy. The return here was triggered by the damage sustained in shipping.

I understand your recommendation and it appears to be a possibility indeed.

See request details and be sure to reply to the buyer by Jun 11, 2021. Note that if you accept the return, you should provide a return shipping label. You can purchase a return shipping label on eBay or send your own label. Starting on that day, the buyer could ask us to step in and help by opening a case - this can affect your seller level.

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My specific issue here is that I used Ebay to purchase my label (discount, convenience) but did not get to choose the carrier for the seller-to-buyer shipment, whereas I can choose a carrier for the buyer-to-seller shipment. It defaulted to USPS, for a return that Ebay knows is related to a UPS shipping damage.

I was actually under the impression that I was buying a UPS label since the price roughly matched what I paid to get it shipped to my buyer. Remember, when you authorize the return, Ebay gives you a one-click option to buy the return label through them. You click it, no prompt, and the label is emailed to your buyer directly.

So Ebay's standard operating procedure is hurting my case with UPS.

[arnaudevi-0]

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@myescape wrote:

My understanding is you void any insurance of any carrier if you have buyer return item

Ebay wrote:

We want to ensure you are clear about the returns process as a private seller, so here is some information we hope you find useful:
When you listed this item, you chose to not accept domestic returns for remorse or change of mind returns.
In this instance however, your buyer has opened the return stating that the item was not as described.
Use the following link to access the return request:

[edited out]
When a “Not as described” return is filed, even private sellers are obliged to accept the return under the eBay Moneyback Guarantee Program.

Next Steps
Provide the buyer with a shipping label so they can return the item to you.
When you get the item back, you should refund your buyer through the return within 2 business days.
If you provide your buyer with a full refund, you will receive an automatic final value fee credit.
Thanks,
eBay

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I do not believe that's the case.
Ebay essentially puts you on the clock to accept the return and issue a return label.

Ebay is clearly placing the burden onto the seller to deal with shipping insurance claims.

Also, the shipping insurance "help" page is under the Selling section. 

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/shipcover/shipping-insurance-shipcover?id=4643#section5

[certifiedcitynet]

Why would UPS pay the insurance claim after USPS returned it to you? How would UPS know whether they or USPS caused the damage?

The only way to collect on UPS insurance is if the buyer cooperates with the claims process immediately after it is delivered to him. Otherwise, you are on the hook. 

Our firm only ships via USPS Priority Mail with Signature Confirmation. UPS and FedEx are far too unreliable. 

[jaja_2942]

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@arnaudevi-0 wrote:

3) Buyer receives item damaged. Takes and shares pictures.

4) Buyer request return on the grounds the item is damaged.

9) I file a claim with UPS for damage in shipping.

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The procedure @arnaudevi-0 is to immediately refund the buyer and close the case. Then file the UPS claim with any available photos, and UPS will go retrieve the damaged package from the buyer for inspection.

However, you will still lose, as any favorable decision on the claim will be paid to eBay the UPS account holder, not to you.

[arnaudevi-0]

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@certifiedcitynet wrote:

Why would UPS pay the insurance claim after USPS returned it to you? How would UPS know whether they or USPS caused the damage?

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Hmmm, because the buyer took pictures on the spot, posted to Ebay and therefore timestamped before the USPS ship back.

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@certifiedcitynet wrote:

The only way to collect on UPS insurance is if the buyer cooperates with the claims process immediately after it is delivered to him. Otherwise, you are on the hook. 

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Honestly, how many buyers will take the time to do that when it delays their refund and require effort on their part?

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@certifiedcitynet wrote:

Our firm only ships via USPS Priority Mail with Signature Confirmation. UPS and FedEx are far too unreliable. 

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I was under a different impression until now but I think you're right. To me UPS and Fedex were always the "premium" options, but obviously taking care of the packages they carry or owning their mistakes is foreign to them. Not surprised but still sucks.

[arnaudevi-0]

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@jaja_2942 wrote:

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However, you will still lose, as any favorable decision on the claim will be paid to eBay the UPS account holder, not to you.

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So in your mind, there is in effect no shipping insurance included with UPS or Fedex when you purchase the label through Ebay?

[whattheactualfox]

This is true. When you refund a buyer, you forfeit your insurance

[whattheactualfox]

So to explain what UPS is saying, when it shipped back via USPS, they could not honor the insurance because (for example) USPS could have damaged the item. They do not know necessarily. It would be making mountains out of molehills there. Besides there is a chance that you could forfeit insurance if you refund the buyer (I would assume full refund. I do not know about partial refunds)

I would have had the buyer give the item and packaging to UPS. Then refund the buyer. This way you start your claim and the buyer got your money back. I am sure they would be understanding about it. And UPS would determine how much you get back and if your claim is validated.

Keep in mind with what I said above, you could refund the buyer and tick "Let buyer keep item" that way they could do above, and you don't pay more for return shipping. As far as I see, there is nothing that can be done except refunding the buyer, sorry.

[jaja_2942]

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@jaja_2942 wrote:

The procedure @arnaudevi-0 is to immediately refund the buyer and close the case. Then file the UPS claim with any available photos, and UPS will go retrieve the damaged package from the buyer for inspection.

However, you will still lose, as any favorable decision on the claim will be paid to eBay the UPS account holder, not to you.

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Here are 2 of numerous testaments right here on the boards.

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@venutian01 wrote:

I already had the buyer open a request for a refund under the grounds of item damaged in shipping, and refunded them in full. They've long since been made whole.

When talking to UPS, they say inspection is complete, claim approved, but they didn't pick it up for salvage either. Also, UPS says that since ebay is the shipper of record, they're making the claim payable to Ebay.

There was another seller on the forum here, and UPS claimed the item for salvage (a $450 computer) and neither returned it to the buyer or seller, but "returned" it to Ebay.

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