Received "Payment Dispute" (Chargeback)- WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED TO SIMPLE RETURN REQUESTS????

[allkindagoods]

I sold an expensive ($80) electrical item. Come to find out, it was not working to the satisfaction of the buyer (unforeseen technical issue, not an easily apparent functional or cosmetic problem). 

Right after receipt, I get a message (not an eBay Return Request) from the buyer stating the merchandise did not work, and to "Please Advise".  As soon as I read the message, I decided it would just be best in this case to just issue a refund, and to cut my losses- did not wish to pay shipping both ways on a SNAD claim for an item that was just discovered to be not properly working (and therefore not able to resell).

When I immediately went to issue the refund, eBay states that I "cannot proceed, since a Payment Dispute has already been filed for this transaction". First thought was: "WOW!! What is a Payment Dispute?? Never have seen one of these!!". So I went to the dispute details, and it stated that "The item did not match the description in your listing". There were two basic options: ACCEPT THE RETURN, or DISPUTE THE RETURN. In either scenario, there was no opportunity to get my merchandise back in my hands, as with an eBay Return Request. (Well, there was a box I checked where eBay would "try to have the item sent back").  And if I chose to dispute the return, this would cost me $20 if I lose the chargeback, and, again, the buyer keeps the merchandise.

Of course, no one ever wins a credit card chargeback except the customer- it is very understandable. CC issuers make a great deal of money for doing basically nothing, and stand to lose income if a customer leaves when they are not satisfied. So fighting the bank is a losing proposition, as they will back their client every time.

Again, I really do not need the item back (in this case), but what would happen if  I DID NEED the item in question returned to me?? AND WHAT ON EARTH HAPPENED TO A SIMPLE eBay RETURN REQUEST?? Shouldn't this be filed FIRST, before allowing someone to run to their payment processor?? BUYER DIDN'T PURCHASE FROM THEIR BANK OR PayPal, THEY BOUGHT IT ON eBay FROM ME. There has to be a better chain of command here!!

When one charges back a credit card, the issuer / bank always asks if the seller was contacted first to resolve any issues BEFORE FILING a request. So why isn't there a system in place on eBay to first settle any real or perceived problems with the item(s), and require them to be sent back??  A CHARGEBACK SHOULD BE A LAST RESORT, AFTER A SELLER FLAT-OUT REFUSES A RETURN. It is not to be used recklessly.

This is a very easy scam which any eBay buyer can perpetrate. Don't like your item? Or want it for FREE?? By all means, DON'T initiate a return request- just file a chargeback with PayPal or your CC company, and (claim) that the item does not match the description. Since a payment dispute places the final decision in the bank's hands, and not eBay's, eBay then "washes their hands" of any liability, and forces the seller to refund without any chance of seeing their merchandise again.

Go in to a brick-and-mortar store and ask for a refund without return of any item. No store anywhere, of course, will just hand any money over without the customer actually bringing the item in question back. If one hands a paper receipt to the clerk and asks for a refund without return, they will be laughed at, and security may be called to escort the person out the door. Or worse. WHY? Because this is THEFT & FRAUD.

SO WHY DOES eBay ALLOW THIS BEHAVIOR HERE??? Common sense & ethics (and THE LAW) certainly would dictate that a seller should reserve the right to receive any goods back which they sold and mailed out. Allowing buyers to go ahead and keep an item AND the money from a transaction under any circumstances seems to be PATENTLY ILLEGAL on many levels!!

HERE'S ANOTHER "KICKER": Since the transaction has not been cancelled by eBay (because a proper return request was never filed), I seem to not have an opportunity to obtain a refund of my eBay fees. Under any normal return claim / request, selling fees are returned when the refund is issued (less a 30 cent transaction fee). This was nearly $90 with tax, so I stand to lose around $10 if my fees are not refunded. A CERTAIN LOSE-LOSE-LOSE SITUATION!!

AND ANOTHER: Now I have an irate buyer wondering when he is going to get his money back. I explained that the refund is in the hands of his bank / CC issuer now since he went and filed the chargeback. And that he would have his funds in his account already if just a simple return claim / request was filed. So this also looks bad on eBay, all because there is not a protocol in place for problems to be solved first at seller level (before needing to have the payment processor involved, which takes much more time).

Has anyone out there had a great deal of cases such as this? Or have I just been lucky so far to have not had any chargebacks filed against my account?? One thing is for certain: Sellers on this site cannot afford to give merchandise away for nothing, especially for a technicality which could have been avoided if this type of behavior was not allowed in the first place. If eBay vendors are continually forced to issue refunds without return and end up with nothing to show for their work, they may take their business (and merchandise) elsewhere.

ANY THOUGHTS??

[48hrs-clothing]

Please note that selling platform eBay and payment processer are two separate businesses and buyer decided in his wisdom how he wanted to proceed. For what it is worth I agree with you totally that buyers should only go to their payment processer if they have not had a satisfactory response from seller on eBay.

Sadly you are in this situation now and all you can do is deal with it the best way that you can.

Cheapest way for you is to : ACCEPT THE RETURN,

Your buyer pays to send the item back and when your item is delivered then Pay pal will refund your buyer and case will close.

If you choose to  DISPUTE THE RETURN then it is almost certain that you will loose the case and will be charged $20 fees.

It is possible that eBay will refund your fees if you talk to them as they will be able to read messages between you and your buyer.

Sadly some buyers are lead to believe that it is in their best interest to open a claim with their Credit card rather than eBay.

These buyers are guided that this way they are guaranteed to get their money back.

There is no question that proper manner is as you state  to communicate with seller, open a return request, seller can advise the buyer to keep the item if he chooses, issue a refund and everything is resolved amicably or ask his buyer to return the item and on receipt issue a refund and again everything is resolved amicably.

Unfortunately eBay can not force the buyer to open a return and either misinformation or bad intentions can lead to odd behaviour as in this particular case.

You may know that return case for SNAD is where seller is given the opportunity to accept the return and issue a pre paid return label and buyer is required to send the item back and if item is not returned then case is closed without a refund to buyer.

If on a SNAD case seller does not accept the return and does not issue a pre paid return label therefore choosing to deny the buyer the opportunity to return the item back then case is closes with a refund to buyer .

This is inline with eBay's policies/ Money back Guarantees and both buyers and seller sign up to these.

Sorry that you have had to deal with this issue but sadly this is just one of the pitfalls of selling on line.

[allkindagoods]

I have been selling here for quite a while, and am very aware of how returns and SNAD work.

Do not expect eBay to refund my fees. The end result here is that, as you mentioned, an uninformed buyer can cause a lot of grief. The only party which monetarily benefits by chargebacks is eBay- seller loses, buyer (deservedly) loses, since they have to wait for the decision of a CC company before receiving their refund.

But this is not a sustainable business model for a site where all the merchandise available is provided by its sellers. Accepting fraudulent behavior by buyers is not "just the cost of doing business", as eBay likes to state. Scams and fraud are against the law, and above all, immoral.

[bonus-deal]

bro, 

ebay is allowing fraud.  read my post.  just do fraud.  screw these ebay people and ebay customers.  

[jonathankirkland]

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@allkindagoods wrote:

Again, I really do not need the item back (in this case), but what would happen if  I DID NEED the item in question returned to me?? AND WHAT ON EARTH HAPPENED TO A SIMPLE eBay RETURN REQUEST?? Shouldn't this be filed FIRST, before allowing someone to run to their payment processor?? BUYER DIDN'T PURCHASE FROM THEIR BANK OR PayPal, THEY BOUGHT IT ON eBay FROM ME. There has to be a better chain of command here!!

ANY THOUGHTS??

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I understand your frustration, but please explain to me how ebay is going to force people to open a case with ebay instead of their cc processor?

[azaz_8302]

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@jonathankirkland wrote:

I understand your frustration, but please explain to me how ebay is going to force people to open a case with ebay instead of their cc processor?

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I understand your frustration, but please explain to me how PayPal persuaded people to open a case with PayPal instead of their cc processor?

PayPal was suffering an increasing volume of credit card chargebacks, and risked losing their credit card processor again, since PayPal is simply a merchant account like your corner bodega taking credit cards, except much larger.

So on June 17, 2014 PayPal began offering buyers 180 days, up from 45 days, to file a dispute on PayPal in an effort to keep disputes on PayPal, to dissuade buyers filing credit card chargebacks.

eBay is suffering an increasing volume of payment disputes, and risks losing its PayPal account, since eBay has just a PayPal account like all sellers still taking PayPal directly, except much busier.

So on a future date eBay will begin offering buyers maybe 180 days or more (than the 180 days at PayPal), up from the current 30 days, to start a request on eBay in an effort to keep requests on eBay, to dissuade buyers filing disputes at PayPal or credit card chargebacks.

[nowurtreasure]

Ebay needs to state to buyers that they must first use Ebays Resolution Process or have their account suspended or closed.  This "payment dispute" is **bleep**! This is happening to me right now, so frustrated! I don't even get to request the item returned. I'd like to dispute it, but don't trust Ebay to work for the Seller. Why would they when they can pocket and extra 20.00!

[rainierdisk]

Im dealing with this now on a rare dvd for 40 bucks. Buyer filed a dispute after 33 days-never contacted me. Noticed they had no feedback and opened account just for this item it appears. Im **bleep** that I wasnt even given and option to plead my case, just accept, or deny. That means anyone can steal anything at anytime. Was planning on selling more expensive items, but not if someone can just lie after the fact. Unbelieveable. 

[deshideep]

How ebay is safe place for the seller ? All ebay is doing  is to help the buyers steal the items from the seller! It does not happen like this at Amazon Marketplace. Never.

[deshideep]

Correct. I agree fully. Ebay must take responsibility or as a seller I do not find eBay a safe place to do business.

[deshideep]

I sell at Amazon Marketplace. I sold hundreds of items each year for last ten years at Amazon with not even a single charge back loss.

[mam98031]

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@bonus-deal wrote:

bro, 

ebay is allowing fraud.  read my post.  just do fraud.  screw these ebay people and ebay customers.  

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@bonus-deal 

Not everything is Ebay's fault simply because this is their site.  Ebay has ZERO control over a buyer's choice to go to the Credit Card Company to file a claim.  They can't stop them from doing that.  Ebay has no authority to do that.  If fraud is happening on a chargeback, it is the CCC that is facilitating it.

[mam98031]

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@azaz_8302 wrote:

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@jonathankirkland wrote:

I understand your frustration, but please explain to me how ebay is going to force people to open a case with ebay instead of their cc processor?

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I understand your frustration, but please explain to me how PayPal persuaded people to open a case with PayPal instead of their cc processor?

PayPal was suffering an increasing volume of credit card chargebacks, and risked losing their credit card processor again, since PayPal is simply a merchant account like your corner bodega taking credit cards, except much larger.

So on June 17, 2014 PayPal began offering buyers 180 days, up from 45 days, to file a dispute on PayPal in an effort to keep disputes on PayPal, to dissuade buyers filing credit card chargebacks.

eBay is suffering an increasing volume of payment disputes, and risks losing its PayPal account, since eBay has just a PayPal account like all sellers still taking PayPal directly, except much busier.

So on a future date eBay will begin offering buyers maybe 180 days or more (than the 180 days at PayPal), up from the current 30 days, to start a request on eBay in an effort to keep requests on eBay, to dissuade buyers filing disputes at PayPal or credit card chargebacks.

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Is this a rumor you are passing around or do you have some insight through Ebay that they are going to do this?

FYI, Ebay already offers it because the accept PP payments from buyers.  The buyers still retain the full protection of PP and Ebay can't deny that to them.  What you state above would then FORCE seller to offer a SIX MONTH return policy.  

@azaz_8302 

This is a far more complex issue that you statement would lead someone to believe.

[mam98031]

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@deshideep wrote:

I sell at Amazon Marketplace. I sold hundreds of items each year for last ten years at Amazon with not even a single charge back loss.

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I too have been selling there a LONG time and just last week was the first Chargeback I've ever gotten.  It was clearly by a buyer that was outside of my return policy but still wanted to return the item.  I was allowed to give Amazon as much information as I saw fit.  Now I just wait to see the outcome.

Some here are talking like if you get a Chargeback you are guaranteed to lose.  Knock on wood.  I have never lost a Chargeback through PP or MP.  That isn't to say my day isn't coming, but so for I've been fine.  It simply is NOT a forgone conclusion that the seller loses every Chargeback.  Certainly if you sit back and do nothing and just let it process, chances are HIGH you will lose.  I don't sit back on any of them.

[babboconiglio]

I just lost 200 , the buyer never return,
better sell $ 10  at ebay  , I quit really selling nothing big !