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Reproductions-OK yes or no?

I think that this leads us into a larger discussion of, "Is it all right to use reproduction pieces to complete a collection, or if it is made up of authentic pieces, is it considered real or reproduction?" I will start this a new thread.
Message 1 of 26
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25 REPLIES 25

Reproductions-OK yes or no?

tsa-li
Thrill-Seeker
panzer: There are laws in some countries. Absolutely understand where you're coming from. When I changed over to British medals, most of the problems stopped or were greatly minimized but it required a hefty investment in books about fakes, forgeries, copies, etc. At least the British seem to have documented this quite well. I get some German medal magazines where they're attempting to take a similar approach. Each medal is covered in minute detail but it's unfortunately only 1 or 2 medal per issue. Where do you buy in France? I can get to Cambrai easily but have found only 1 medal dealer there, the next closest being Paris. Other than that, I just hit the flea markets in France if I can find them.
Message 16 of 26
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Reproductions-OK yes or no?

panzerkeno
Enthusiast
Well, tsa-li, you probably know how it is with military antiques shops on the continent: they might not be there anymore when you return after a few years. This happened to me with the "regimentals" store in London. ( as it's linked now by the tunnel they are now part of the continent-heehee.) But to answer your question: "static line" in St.Mére-église ( repros are marked as such) and "antiquités Avranches" in Avranches. I'm telling you the London story because it's been several years since I've been to Avranches. The St. Mére -eglise shop was still there last year during the D-Day 60th anniversary festivities. A couple of years ago I almost bought a silver panzer battle badge there-almost.
Message 17 of 26
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Reproductions-OK yes or no?

tsa-li
Thrill-Seeker
panzer: Most of the places I used to go in London are long gone - even Spink's has moved. The places in France that you mention would require an overnight trip for me so they're something I'd have to work into a short vacation (as opposed to just driving down to Cambrai and back in a few hours). I've got to make a trip back over that way, I finally found the correct cemetery my uncle (KIA D-Day) is buried at, the family said it was another cemetery and I couldn't ever find his grave. While I was up in Hamburg a few weeks ago I saw quite a few original issue Panzer Battle Badges, sort of pricey items.
Message 18 of 26
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Reproductions-OK yes or no?

panzerkeno
Enthusiast
tsa-li: ha, yes: "sort of pricey". Exactly. Like I said: don't shoot me if "antiquités Avranches" is gone: it's been I think 4 or 5 years ago. I bought a well-worn LW flak badge there last time. I had a late war issue already, but not an early silver-plated version. The shop in St.Mére-église is in the main street at the right before you wind up at the town square. That is, if you're coming into St.Mére -église from the highway turnoff "St.Mére -église", travelling on the main highway that connects Caen and Bayeux and then all the way to Cherbourg. As for Avranches: the shop ( on the right) is in a modern shopping street that goes uphill, if coming from the big town suare. Hope this helps you out a little. All the best!
Message 19 of 26
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Reproductions-OK yes or no?

I get alot of my stuff from manion's for reselling on Ebay. I try to get real items, but sometimes I can't tell. Can anyone suggest websites that can educate or guide me? I suppose its mostly experience.
Message 20 of 26
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Reproductions-OK yes or no?

watchesrussia
Enthusiast
I think, for me and German items, firstly goes WA. Especially their forums.
Message 21 of 26
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Reproductions-OK yes or no?

I think for the German military items, since there are so many (quantity), and such a degree of quality to the reproductions, the collector is best to find a dealer or dealers (maybe auction house(s)) that they are confortable with and have a confort level that the items that are listed as original are original and that if an item is a reproduction it will be properly described as such.
Message 22 of 26
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Reproductions-OK yes or no?

panzerkeno
Enthusiast
Yes! Way to go! After all, we can't expect every aspiring 3d Reich militaria collector to do 20 years of reading and research. There's lots of fun into research, to be sure, and nothing beats experience. But I hate to see a young collector being ripped off. There's a British guy on eBay now selling complete crap at ridiculous prices. I'm not buying, but I don't think it's funny.
Message 23 of 26
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Reproductions-OK yes or no?

One of my most vexing question, one that I have asked here before is this: If a dealer/collector takes a plain German helmet and adds authentic SS decals, does that make it an authentic SS helmet worthy of $2000+? If a dealer/collector adds an original Gross Deutschland cufftitle to an otherwise ordinary German infantryman's uniform does that make it an authentic Grossdeutschland uniform? And if they identify in the item description that the item is original but is put together using authentic items, should he be penalized for selling fakes?
Message 24 of 26
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Reproductions-OK yes or no?

tsa-li
Thrill-Seeker
We've talked about this before but here's my contribution. Everyone should bear in mind that these are my opinions although many militaria collectors in Germany use similar distinctions. IMHO, the militaria collectors haven't adopted standardized terms (similar to that used by medal collectors) which leads to misunderstandings. The questions DerAdler pose are ethically interesting. (Where DerAdler and I historically differ on this topic is mainly the terminology rather than the spirit of the answer.) 1. "If a dealer/collector takes a plain German helmet and adds authentic SS decals, does that make it an authentic SS helmet worthy of $2000+?": It'd be fairly hard for me to believe that contemporary SS decals could still be applied and suspect that replacement decals were used. With the former, the helmet and it's markings would be contemporary but not as issued (hence a lower price) while the later would be in the re-enactor's class (and not worth the price of a contemporary or as issued helmet). A major concern to me would be the description of the item. Decal application can be analyzed and sometimes dated but the experience level for this is quite high and is not always possible and is even more difficult if contemporary items are used. Consider this example: You have an authentic/official attributed as issued Blue Max with Oak Leaves worn in WWII by a member of the German Staff. The ribbon is missing. (1) Do you replace it with a current length of ribbon? or (2) Do you replace it with a contemporary length of ribbon that cost $200? or (3) Do not replace the ribbon and just leave the Order bare of ribbon in your display or re-sell? or (4) Keep it and work on a upgrade to a similar item which has never had any part of it replaced? (Hint: In medal collecting there is a standard answer for this example.) 2. "If a dealer/collector adds an original Gross Deutschland cufftitle to an otherwise ordinary German infantryman's uniform does that make it an authentic Grossdeutschland uniform?": It doesn't make it an contemporary authentic as issued Großdeutschland uniform. This particular example is a little easier because the thread used for sewing can usually be dated fairly well and a quick determination of whether this is totally contemporary or not. With all original items used, it could be considered authentic but not as issued or not as worn. Consider this example: You have a totally authentic, as issued contemporary Großdeutschland uniform which is heavilly documented, named, and attributed beyond question. Unfortunately, the Iron Cross 2nd Class ribbon is in frays but luckily you have an original ribbon piece laying around and replace it. You identify this in your description. Does this change the uniform? (To me it would and render the uniform totally uninteresting, just for this one minute detail.) 3. "And if they identify in the item description that the item is original but is put together using authentic items, should he be penalized for selling fakes?": In this particular case it wouldn't be a fake since the alterations with original items was clearly identified. However, it also would not be contemporary (which is where the presumed value is established) - that is what you're driving at. By defination, this couldn't be a fake since all alterations were clearly identified. Determination of these alterations would be fairly easy by looking at the threads and ares where the alteration was made.
Message 25 of 26
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Reproductions-OK yes or no?

panzerkeno
Enthusiast
I for one think that authentic items should be left as they are, without adding authentic items. I'm saying "should" because I have no problem whatsoever with a collector adding an original cuff title to an original uniform. I think that the importance of the distinction "dealer/collector" has been overlooked: a dealer should definitely NOT do this, UNLESS any alteration is clearly described and stated. Some food for thought: a collector buys an original Waffen SS uniform. At home he adds a "Das Reich" original cuff title to it. Fine with me. A dealer can do this too: as long as he's honest about what he's done. But whatever the case, The authenticity is of course compromised! It's all a question of being fair and honest, as far as I'm concerned.
Message 26 of 26
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