Reproductions-OK yes or no?

[der_adler1]

I think that this leads us into a larger discussion of, "Is it all right to use reproduction pieces to complete a collection, or if it is made up of authentic pieces, is it considered real or reproduction?" I will start this a new thread.

[der_adler1]

I knew a dealer that used to use authentic German uniforms and add authentic scarce shoulder boards, cuff titles, etc and sell the item as authentic. Is it real or a reproduction? Also is it OK to use reproductions to complete a collection because the actual item is too rare or too expensive? Lastly-At a show, what obligation does the promoter have to force dealer who sell reproductions to clearly list them as such?

[rhoheit_1]

Counterfeits are counterfeits. My stamp collection is full of empty spaces. I can see pictures of stamps that will never be in my album. If someone wants to own a fake, I have no objection. I do not want fakes circulating as the real item. It seems a basic principle of collecting that "this is authentic!" The world is filled with fakes and ripoffs. My collection is pure. It will always be. It always was. Just my point of view.

[tsa-li]

This was the reply I posted on the °Military Medal Collector Club° discussion board: “My opinion is that a repro can't "complete" a collection but is used as a "gap filler" to illustrate the item. I've done this a few times with rather hard to get items until an original can be located (which might take years of searching and saving). You could use a photograph in this same capacity but a physical item does make the collection more interesting. Obviously, the repro has to be clearly identified and absolutely no attempt made to pass it off as an original. On the 2nd part about show promoters, we need to look at legal vs. ethical duty. Normally, a show promoter has no legal duty to require this unless there is some law in existance about this. Ethically, it's probably a dilema for the show promoter and difficult to enforce, except for possibly the most obvious cases. It would help if the attitudes changed about repros and they were recognized for what they are (a similar but not authentic item). I know quite a few dealers that mainly sell repros and their business is very good while they maintain high ethical standards. In my opinion, a show promoter who knowingly allows a seller to pass off repros as originals is worse than the seller - and I think this touches on the actual problem. The current solution seems to fall on the buyer - who needs to know their particular collecting area as well as any expert (fairly difficult for a beginner and a definate problem for the future of our hobbies). The most obvious area that comes to mind is the 3rd Reich medals and badges. Some estimates have placed 90% of these items as being repros which are being touted as originals. This particular collecting area is so bad, I got out of it well over 30 years ago and am very glad I did. These items are probably the best example of what's being discussed. The field of collecting British medals does have some problems but are fairly minor in comparison. One of the foundations of this group" (MMCC) "is that while repros are allowed to be discussed, they are required to be identified as such. At least here, we've attacked this concern before it comes up (something the show promoters should do also).“

[pconrad02]

Well, since I sort of raised the question.. Can a repro complete a collection? My answer is NO unless it’s a collection of reproductions! In the past I have used fakes to fill holes, but I don’t anymore, there is something about that hole is the display that drives me to find the “real article” plus the money spent on the fake is just that much less I have to spend on the real thing. Will I ever get a first pattern Naval Observer wing? Probably not, but I have things in my collection that I never would have believed, it’s just a matter of patience, so you never know! (Anyone have one by the way 🙂 ) I am in favor of a law requiring all reproductions be stamped with a date of manufacture. I too know a few dealers, one is a very good friend of mine, who make a decent living producing nice repros, and there certainly is a place for them (living history folks, pulling together a memory plaque, fishing lures/sinkers..) . BUT I think that they should be marked indelibly. Show promoters are just that, they are out there to make a living, and not be the morality police, but as collectors we can just refuse to buy from the those sellers who sell unmarked high quality fakes, because that’s what will stop them, hitting them in the pocket book. I also agree that the area of 3rd Reich medals and badges is a wasteland, and frankly I think that anyone trying to get started in collecting that stuff today is, well nuts. But its not just the Nazi stuff, I collect US wings and that field is really bad too, I even hear that Brit Cap badges are getting faked so badly in England that the collectors are coming to US eBay and other US venues to find authentic stuff! As to the question of “does pulling period insignia back on a period uniform make it a repro” , I guess I don’t have as much don’t a problem with that , I would say no, but I’m sure that many will disagree! Some great discussions lately BTW!

[der_adler1]

rhoheit-I think we need to say that it depends on what you collect. If you collect German WWII wound badges, they are easy, and inexpensive to collect a whole set, except for the special badges issued to military members injured during the assassination attempt on Hitler on July 20, 1944. There are only a handful that can be attributed. I have seen one that listed for $20,000. So the odds of me ever owning one are pretty remote. I like the idea that reproductions should be stamped or marked with the date of manufacture. I have a problem with a dealer taking an average German Enlisted uniform with $400 and adding a 'Grossdeutschland' cufftitle and selling the uniform as original and charging $2500.

[pconrad02]

Deradler, Oh I agree, I meant that, say you had a complete WWII USAAF Pilots tunic, and it was missing one of the “wing and props” and you replaced it with a matching period piece I wouldn't’t have a problem, but turning something into something it isn’t, I agree with you wholeheartedly! 20K for a badge? That's another reason I don't collect German stuff... 🙂

[der_adler1]

pc- I saw a gold July 20th gold wound badge, one of only 7 I think that was ever issued to a Kriegsmarine Admiral who was at the meeting. The badge was in mint condition and came with the provenance that showed the ownership from the original owner to the dealer. That was back in the 80's so I am sure that it is more now. Along the same line, I was called to help a collector who had quite a bit of money and I had to tell him that the gold July 20 wound badge he spend $800 was a fake. He was not at all happy. But in the end, he thanked me for being straight with him about the authenticity of a high ticket item.

[kevinegan1]

Kinda of getting off the subject here but would like a little info. if possible from some of the more learned members. I have an old German Stein. I would like some info. if anyone knows. It is a ceramic earthen stein 10" tall X 4" diam. approximately. On the lid is inscribed "Gen. v Vet Verein, Harburg Y. S. Hochzeit." Under the lid hinge in the ceramic are these letters "O,51" the "O" has a tail coming off and underlines the entire group. On the back of the lid hinge is inscribed ("1905" crudely). Behind the ceramic handle is what appears to be the border of a family crest but is absent of any markings. The entire stein is of a cream colour. The depiction scene surrounding the bulk of the stein is of WWI era german soldiers in uniform, all with spiked helmets. There is a guardpost pictured among the group as well as a soldier with back pack, a soldier sitting and a soldier without a spiked helmet but rather a brimless hat.There are trees depicted among the 11 soldiers in which the leaves are bordered by green coloration. The grass appears as well with the same coloration. The tree trunks are black. Thank you. KP Egon

[der_adler1]

kevinegan-Upload some photos of the outside, the handle and the inside of the lid. It would be very helpful.

[tsa-li]

"On the lid is inscribed "Gen. v Vet Verein, Harburg Y. S. Hochzeit."" --I suspect this is transcribed incorrectly. A photo would probably put this into the correct context. "Under the lid hinge in the ceramic are these letters "O,51" the "O" has a tail coming off and underlines the entire group." --This is a marker for 1/2 liter (.5l or 0,5l). It sounds like this is a pre-WWI Reservist Stein. Look through the bottom of the stein while holding it up to light and mention what you see. Really need photos to comment further, as DerAdler mentioned.

[tsa-li]

I just had an unusual eBay experience. A seller located in Bendigo, Goldfields, Victoria, Australia currently has listed a "tailor's copy" British WWI Military Cross (GBP 49.00, no bids). Questions prior to submitting your bid are clearly asked for and encouraged. The photo was fuzzy and lacking details required. Since we all know that the common eBay MC copy (reproduction) is ca. $15 and a very high quality tailor's copy (ca. early 1920's, French? made) is possibly $250, of course I had some questions. Within about 2 hours of sending off my questions to the seller, I received a reply stating that he was blocking me from bidding based on me asking the questions. -?????? Maybe some of the more experienced members can enlighten me on this? Is he selling the basic eBay cheap copies (reproductions) and got nervous with a potential bid from an experienced collector? Are some of the Australian ebayers rich enough to turn down a potential $750 customer (there were 3 other medal groups and a train engine I was interested in)? Do the Australian eBayers receive strange emails that mine possibly replicated? Is it absolutely not associated with Australia and unique to this one individual? After almost 10 years with eBay, I really don't know what to think about this.

[glass-salmon]

Appears to be an Italion helmet.

[glass-salmon]

Don't like reproductions at all. YOU may buy it as a retpro, but you can bet your bottom dollar the next guy is gonna sell it as original. I really like the idea of stamping repros with a date of origin. I have seen some Nazi medals they are restricking from original dies out of the same metal as the originals. Is this a retro? Definitely! but unless you know WHEN it was struck...

[panzerkeno]

well, "tsa-li": I couldn't agree more: although my WW2 german decoration collection gave and still gives me great pleasure , only a few badges have been added these past 15 years ( and then I'm lucky I can still buy good genuine stuff in France from a few honest dealers) 3d Reich items, decorations in particular, have become a wasteland. I prefer to call it a minefield. So, I too in a way stopped collecting this stuff. Spending $800 on what turns out to be a fake item is NOT funny- I feel for the guy in "deradler"'s story. Yes, we can of course all say in unison that part of the fun of collecting is the research and knowing your business: learning to detect the fakes. But this whole WW2 German stuff has become oh so tiresome. Even if you have the cash to spend: man , if you don't know this stuff thoroughly, you're f-well, you know what I mean. I've had my share of fun exposing fakes in direct confrontation with sellers, but I had to learn the hard way: I've been ripped off quite a few times in my time. Fakes should be marked as such ( on the back), like they do with, say the V.C. There should be laws on this!