Selling unusable items under the "used" description

[zzwill51]

I paid $70.00 for a Snap-On ratchet that was listed as "used."  The price seemed appropriate for this used ratchet.  I looked over the pictures carefully and did not see any problems except for some chrome missing in spots.  That is common for used tools.

What I received was a ratchet that is so worn, it is unsafe to use.   I immediately contacted the seller, wanting to return the item with me paying the return shipping cost. 

The seller refused to allow me to return the item (doesn't do returns) so I opened up a case, but was confused on how to open it up.  The item was used, so I figured I couldn't do the "Item not as described" case.  I simply wanted ebay's help to return the item.

The case was closed in the seller's favor because the seller convinced ebay that I knew the item was "used" and that I could exchange the ratchet for a new Snap-On ratchet under Snap-On's warranty.  That is a lie, as Snap-On doesn't consider worn out tools as a warranty issue.  The seller also claimed that I should have asked them more questions about the item and also requested more pictures, etc.  In other words, I bought a flea market or yard sale level item on ebay and paid for a tool that I assumed was usable because of the price the seller was asking for it.  Apparently, ebay didn't think the listing was fraudulent under their guidelines.

Ebay suggested that I open up a case under Paypal, which is what I will do next.

Finally to the question.  Does ebay not have some sort of policy governing used items as to the level of "used?"  Many e-commerce sites make the seller rate the used item, using a 1-10 scale.  It seems like, under ebay, I can pass off unusable junk as simply "used" and get away with sticking it to unexpecting buyers like this seller did me, simply refusing returns (even if the buyer wants to pay for the return).   All they can do is leave me negative feedback.  In the meantime, I am laughing all the way to the bank. 

Unfortunately, I did not use a credit card for this purchase.  Shame on me, as I knew better.  So, it looks like the loop-hole for abominable sellers is to hope buyers don't do any further steps than to hope ebay resolves the issue?  Ebay told me I should have opened up the case under "Item not as described."  Really?  So, how do I report a used item as not being a used item?  So, I should have opened up a NAD case, then stated the item was too used to be useful?  Now, I don't know about anyone else, but I found that to be a bit confusing.

So, what would be the ultimate solution to guard against deceitful sellers...require them to rate the used item on a 1-10 scale of how used it is to try to make things more honest?  Why hasn't ebay considered using this rating approach for used items?

[zzwill51]

Have you read this thread?  I know what a used item is.  Geez!  I am talking about buying an item at a price that suggests the used item is still usable, but receive an item that is so far used, it is unsafe to use.  Basically, it is just unusable junk.  So, let me sell you this ratchet for the same price I paid for it.  Yes, it is used.  But, did I mention that it is worn out and unusable?  Would you then pay $70 for it?

[zzwill51]

All good points.  Again, who is ebay supposed to believe or side with?  Here we are, going back to the "item not as described" category.  Who is ebay supposed to side with in the dispute I am having with the seller?  Like you said, they don't have the time (or manpower) to handle thousands of disputes.

I am simply thinking out loud, raising questions regarding buying a piece of junk from a seller who doesn't accept returns.  This opens the door for bad sellers to sell junk at used item prices, sticking it to buyers.  What recourse does a buyer have, other than Paypal or credit card company?  I am thinking of some way ebay could come up with some sort of system that separates more clearly a usable used item versus a unusable used item.  The rating system should perhaps suggest a more realistic price.  One site that uses a rating system is Audiogon dot com.  Used high-end audio gear is sold under a rating system. 

The rating system clearly defines what each number represents as to use, cosmetic condition, etc.  It's not perfect, but it does offer at least some sort of rating system.  If a seller rates an item a "9" under the rating system, then the buyer expects a certain amount of used quality for the item, knowing the item is still used.  A high rated used item carries with it a higher price tag compared to similar used items with a lower rating.

So, after thinking about your comment, I would say you are correct in the sense that ebay is just too big, with too many listings, to incorporate some sort of rating system that it now has to deal with regarding seller/buyer differences of opinion as to the quality of the used item.

Thank you for contributing to the conversation.  So, I guess it always comes down to the ebay guarantees in place?  Just have to file the correct claim regarding the used item stuff.  Perhaps ebay will update their "not as described" to include this sort of situation.  Or, maybe it's there and I just didn't see it or understand it.  At least I know what to do if this sort of thing happens again!

[castlemagicmemories]

There seems to be an issue with both buyers and sellers alike.  They do not see the explanation that is right on the listing.  Ebay puts the definition of used there, and it must be a working item.  

Seller's arguments that you should have asked more questions, asked for more pictures, etc. do not hold up.  Ebay requires the seller to list the item in the condition it is, and worn out is not used.  They also require an accurate description and any damage to be mentioned in that description.

The item was not as described and the case should have been filed as such.  Your rationale regarding the case broke down because you felt it was used and that the seller chose the correct category to list it, but in reality, the seller chose the wrong category because the tool was unuseable, and the seller chose an incorrect category.  You didn't get what it appeared to be by the seller's listing.

Sorry this happened to you, OP.

[castlemagicmemories]

You can ask questions but the answers may not be complete, accurate or true.

[zzwill51]

I think the biggest problem is that I consider the item unusable, but the seller still considers the item usable because the item is not broken.  I told the seller I could not trust trying to use the ratchet, fearing it would skip or break, being in the condition it was in.  It is simply an accident waiting to happen. 

I told the seller this item would be similar to buying a used car, but unable to drive it because it is so worn out, it wanders all over the road due to worn out steering linkage, etc.  Yes, the car is used as stated.  Yes, the engine runs.  But, the car belongs in a junk yard, as it is not safe to be driven on the highway.  But, the seller listed it as used, providing a price a typical used car of the make, model and year would suggest for a "usable" used car.

I offered to return the ratchet, return shipping cost on me, but the seller refused.  Why?  He knew what he did.  He then had the audacity to tell me to turn it into Snap-On for a new one.  That was an insult to my intelligence.  I asked the seller why he didn't do that and then sell a new ratchet on ebay?  No response, other than I don't accept returns.  Case closed.

I've been around ebay long enough to understand about fraud and deceit.  I've seen many sellers lose their selling priveleges as a result of not making the ebay minimum seller standards.  Regardless, it never feels good to be screwed by either a bad seller or bad buyer.  Personally, I think ebay could do a better job of resolving disputes.  But, it's easy to be on the sidelines, criticising those playing the game. 

[lintbrush*]

You keep wanting to fight us on what Used means, but it's pretty clear stated... "fully operational and functions as intended"

In your case, it did not fit the description.  Sure, it was used but it didn't function as intended.  It was "worn out and unusable" so that contradicts the eBay sanctioned definition of Used.

I'd say 80% of the items I sell are used.  Maybe 15% are pre-owned but unused.   I understand Used.  If I sell it on eBay as Used, it better work/function.

[zzwill51]

You hit the nail on the head.  I definitely got hung up on the "used" meaning.  When opening up a case, I wanted to use the "item not as described" but my situation didn't seem to fit ebay's requirements:

"If you received an item that’s incomplete, damaged, counterfeit, or otherwise not as described, request a return from My eBay. We will track the resolution and help if you ask us to step in. "

Well, the item wasn't incomplete, damaged or counterfeit.  The part I stumbled on was the "otherwise not as described" part.  It was a Snap-On ratchet.  It was used as stated in the listing.  Like you and others have stated, used means functional.  But, the item is functional, but not functional as to trust using it.  I simply got confused over what seemed to me to be a "gray" area.  I told the seller the item was not usable, being completely worn out.  The seller disagreed with me and said it was still usable and it was covered under the Snap-On warranty.  It is not covered under the Snap-On warranty.  So, who is right?  All I know is that I paid $70 for an item that I am afraid to use.  I simply wanted to return it and pay for the return shipping.  The seller said no...case closed.

I think this whole thing would be a non-issue had I used a credit card.  I screwed up...that simple.  But, maybe Paypal will allow me to return the item for a refund.  Will soon find out.

[buyselljack2016]

---

@zzwill51 wrote:

Have you read this thread?  I know what a used item is.  Geez!  I am talking about buying an item at a price that suggests the used item is still usable, but receive an item that is so far used, it is unsafe to use.  Basically, it is just unusable junk.  So, let me sell you this ratchet for the same price I paid for it.  Yes, it is used.  But, did I mention that it is worn out and unusable?  Would you then pay $70 for it?

---

@zzwill51

You missed the point/intent of my post

Geez!!   No thanks, I do not want to buy the ratchet.

Yes you did mention it is worn out and unusable.

No, I would not pay $70 for it, and if I had, I would have opened a return in the resolution center to be refunded via the eBay MBG.

The point of my post was to clearly show what eBay considers as "used".  Your previous posts did not  indicate that you understood how eBay classified the items.  New, used, parts/not working

EDIT: and there is pretty much no such thing as a seller that "does not accept returns".  That has probably already been stated, but "no returns" only applies to "remorse" returns.

[mudshark61369 · Accepted solution]

@zzwill51,

What you seem to be missing in all of your replies is HOW ebay's Money Back Guarantee (MBG) works, and how the Returns process works. 

You already admitted to missing the part of the returns policy about what used condition means.

"An item that has been used previously. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended. This item may be a floor model or store return that has been used. See the seller's listing for full details and description of any imperfections".

Since there was no mention in the listing that the ratchet may slip or not catch when the dial/thumbswitch is moved, or it may disconect while ratcheting,  and the seller omitted to say that, it was not as described!!!

You seem stuck on how ebay deals with disagreements between the buyer and seller and who they will side with.

The answer to that in 99.9% of the cases is THE BUYER.  Those of us who have been on these boards for any length of time, have seen over and over where sellers are responsible for accepting a return, even when the buyer admits being wrong, not having read the description, decided they didn't want it, broke it, etc. etc. etc!!!  It rarely matters what the seller claims, they have very few protections from SNAD disputes.  

The MBG policy overides any sellers no returns policy when not as described is claimed. Had you selected Not As Described originally when you requested the return, if the seller had refused, you could have asked ebay to step in and escalated the Return to a Dispute.  ebay wouldn't have cared what the seller claimed at that point unless they had mentioned the ratchet slipped occasionally in the descripton. 

Actually the best way to deal with an item you feel is not as described is to contact the seller, not start with a return request, and if the seller doesn't agree or tells you to pound sand, open a SNAD dispute not a return request. If they follow through promptly they do not get a defect. 

FYI.

As far as Snap-On or Mac tool truck warranty quotas go, it depends on their sales, how many they are limited to.  The trucks that have several large dealerships or shops on their route, have a higher number of allowable warranty claims, than the drivers who deal with fewer dealerships or mostly with small shops.

 Sometimes you can get a free repair kit for a worn out ratchet.  I got one for a 1/2" ratchet that was part of a (Case Tractor Program) tool set so the tools in the set would all match, otherwise I would have received a Snap-On stamped replacement.  Buying the New Holland or Case, program, Snap-On tools is a great way to save money BTW.

[zzwill51]

Yes.  You have basically restated what previous members have said regarding being hung up on what "used" entails.  I have learned quite a bit from those who have replied, especially you. 

Thank you to everyone who took the time to get me on track!

I filed a NAD claim yesterday through Paypal.  The seller responded to them, so I am now waiting to hear back from Paypal. 

Interesting comments regarding Snap-On.  They were very adimate in telling me that their warranty is non-transferrable from the original purchaser.  Also, they want to see a receipt or proof of purchase regarding the item requiring a warranty claim.  I can't speak for the truck guys.  I guess they kinda do their own thing within the limits they can do it in, since it has an impact on future tool  sales.  I do know the truck guys in my area are very picky.  Perhaps it is for the reason(s) you stated regarding how much sales volume their routes entail.

[zzwill51]

You are correct.  Ebay explained that to me as well.  I simply did not file a claim correctly with ebay.  So, they advised me to file the claim correctly through Paypal, which is what I have done.

It is all making sense to me now.  Took awhile for your comments and other member's comments to get through my thick skull.  🙂

Thank you for sticking with this and helping me get over my mental blockage.  Greatly appreciated!

[mudshark61369]

@zzwill51,

"Interesting comments regarding Snap-On.  They were very adimate in telling me that their warranty is non-transferrable from the original purchaser.  Also, they want to see a receipt or proof of purchase regarding the item requiring a warranty claim".

Sounds like you contacted Snap-On directly, and of course you were quoted the company line, by a rep who is paid to tell you those things.

  Over the years, I've found Snap-on tools on the side of the road, in farm fields, left in cars I've purchased, and once a ratchet, extension, and socket, at the end of a gas dock on a lake. My glasses fell off and I dove for them, and found the tools and glasses. I've also purchased some S.O. items from hock shops, garage sales, and on ebay. 

Not one of those items I found or bought that was damaged, or worn out, did I have a problem exchanging or getting refurbished, and not once was I asked for a receipt. I do not have an account with one of the Truck Drivers, or Snap On, but do use a driver, who visits two shops in the light industrial complex where I have my Storage/Shop where I fix my vehicles and boats, to buy replacement pieces, exchange or ask for warranty repairs.   He has never turned me down. The bottom line is Snap-On wants happy customers, and to keep them coming back, they'll fix or replace most anything, or give a repair kit, within reason. 

[zzwill51]

After speaking with Snap-On, I googled their warranty and read what they told me.  So, I guess it comes down to buying the Snap-On truck guy some donuts or something to keep him happy?  lol 

Around here, the truck guys are nothing like you have described regarding your situation.  I wish they were, as it would make my situation a mute point.  Well, if the seller ends up having to take the item back, then he can exchange it for a new one (like he told me to do) and then resell it on ebay for more money than what I paid for this current junk ratchet.  Perhaps that is the best solution anyway.

[tunicaslot]

mud -I googled the Snap On Warrenty as I too was under the impression they will fix or exchange any product. I found quite a few posters on different forums that within the past year have had problems with Snap On honoring their warrenty so the OP is not the only one who has gotten this line.

[castlemagicmemories]

---

@zzwill51 wrote:

You are correct.  Ebay explained that to me as well.  I simply did not file a claim correctly with ebay.  So, they advised me to file the claim correctly through Paypal, which is what I have done.

It is all making sense to me now.  Took awhile for your comments and other member's comments to get through my thick skull.  🙂

Thank you for sticking with this and helping me get over my mental blockage.  Greatly appreciated!

---

Op, please don't beat yourself over this.  It speaks volumes for your ethics, honesty, and character that you were trying to to do the right thing here~you just got tangled up in semantics and terminology.